Ep. 092: When Horse Hoof Problems Don’t Add Up - Here’s What You’re Missing with Dr. Sammy Pittman

Episode Notes

What if the key to solving your horse’s lingering hoof issues isn’t a different supplement or shoe, but a completely different way of looking at their feet?

On this episode, co-hosts Dr. Tania Cubitt and Katy Starr and guest Dr. Sammy Pittman, a veterinarian, farrier, and equine podiatry expert, discuss how the environment, biomechanics, and nutrition all play a role in horse hoof soundness, including:

• What’s really happening when horse hooves chip, crack, or flare
• Why "fixing" conformation can sometimes do more harm than good
• How over-supplementing might be hurting your horse more than helping

Whether you're managing a high-level performance horse or a trail riding horse, this episode is packed with practical takeaways to help you support soundness and build stronger hooves - from the inside out.

🎧 Listen now on Beyond the Barn!

Have a topic idea or feedback to share? We want to connect with you! Email podcast@standlee.com

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Connect with Dr. Sammy Pittman on:

• Facebook - @innovativeequinepodiatry
• Instagram - @innovativeequinepodiatry
• TikTok - @innovative.equine
• Websites

1. Innovative Equine Podiatry and Veterinary Services
2. Creative Equine Solutions, LLC
3. Horse Science AnatomyWorks

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*Views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the view of Standlee Premium Products, LLC.*

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Read full episode transcript

Katy Starr (00:01):

Hi, I'm Katy.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (00:02):

And I'm Dr. Cubitt. We're going Beyond the Barn. Come join us on this journey as we bust equine and livestock nutrition myths, and interview some of the most intriguing experts in the country.

 

Katy Starr (00:15):

We'll go behind the scenes of how premium Western quality forage is grown and brought to your favorite farm and ranch retail store. We're so glad you're here.

 

Katy Starr (00:32):

Saturday, April 26th, is World Veterinary Day, and we want to take a moment to recognize the incredible veterinarians out there, especially those dedicated to large animals and horses. They're the ones who step in when we've done everything we can when our horse colics, when they get caught in a fence and come out with a bad laceration, or when we're faced with the hardest decision of all, knowing it's time to say goodbye. These moments aren't just tough on us, they weigh heavy on the veterinarians who see them day in and day out. Right now, we're facing a real shortage of equine and large animal vets, and that's a scary thought. Imagine needing help for your horse and not being able to find a vet who can come. It's a reality in some areas, and it's something we don't want to take for granted. Veterinarians have sacrificed so much - missing family dinners, their kids' events, and even sleep just to be there when we need them most. So, today I want to challenge you to do something simple but meaningful. Show your appreciation to your veterinarian. It could be a handwritten note, a text, a call, whatever feels right. Just take a moment to tell your vet how much they mean to you, and how grateful you are for everything they do for you and your animals. It might seem small, but trust me, it matters. To all the veterinarians out there, hank you so much for everything you do. Your work and dedication to our industry does not go unnoticed.

 

Katy Starr (01:58):

Welcome back to another episode of Beyond the Barn. Dr. Cubitt, we have a great guest joining us today on the podcast, and I'm really excited.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (02:08):

Yes, I am too.

 

Katy Starr (02:09):

So, our next guest is a veterinarian, farrier and equine podiatry expert who spent his entire career helping horses overcome some of the toughest lameness challenges. He grew up in rural Oklahoma where his passion for horses started early, picking up his first set of farrier tools at just 15 years old. That early experience eventually led him to veterinary school and later to opening Innovative Equine Podiatry and Veterinary Services, one of the only vet practices in the country, exclusively dedicated to hoof health and biomechanics. He is also the creator behind Creative Equine Solutions, designing innovative tools and shoes for farriers and vets in horse science anatomy works, developing equine anatomy models that help horse owners better understand what's happening beneath the hoof wall. I'd like to welcome Dr. Sammy Pittman to the Beyond the Barn podcast. Thanks so much for joining us today, Dr. Pittman.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (03:05):

Thanks for having me.

 

Katy Starr (03:06):

We're really excited to talk to you today a little bit about hoof management and biomechanics of the hoof and how all of that goes into play when we're thinking about and working with and caring for our horses. And before we get started, I'd like to let our listeners know that any of the topics that we cover on the Beyond the Barn podcast are more generalized and not specific to any individual horse or any specific situation. Be sure to always work with your veterinarian and nutritionist before making any drastic changes to your horses feed program. Or you can reach out and talk directly with Dr. Cubitt or Dr. Duren, Dr. Pittman can also, we can help you reach out to him as well if there are any specifics that you would like to know from today's conversation. So, Dr. Pittman, if you could, why don't you tell us just a little bit about your background with horses and where you grew up?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (03:56):

So, I grew up in a ranching farming community where we utilized horses for work. And so, it was kind of a tool growing up and always wanted to, at a very young age, wanted to be a veterinarian. I think that was probably the smartest and most interesting person that I was able to interact with there on the on the farming/ranching aspect. As I got older, just having the horses in that scenario, that type of situation on the cattle ranch was that oftentimes you just learn how to do your own because there wasn't anybody to do it. Or quite literally you're probably too broke to afford to pay somebody. But yeah, there was at 15, I can remember the guy that used to help us shoe some of our horses was having a, a rough day with, with my old mare, and he set her foot down and looked up at me and, and he decided it was time for me to learn how to do it.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (04:44):

So, that was the first time I, I got to crawl underneath one and start working on horses' feet. I never really had an intention of being a professional farrier. It was always a goal to go to veterinary school. And once I went through veterinary school or as I went through veterinary school, I would shoe horses for extra money and then went out to Northern California and worked in some packing outfits, shoeing pack horses and pack mules and taking packed trips. So, gained a lot of horsemanship skills and shoeing skills there at a, on a remedial basis. Then graduated veterinary school in 2003. I didn't really get a lot of hoof care management in veterinary school. And I think that's pretty typical for the, for equine veterinary training as we just don't get a whole lot of that. And in their defense, they can't cover every subject in great detail, obviously.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (05:32):

But once I got out into practice, I found myself with the lameness problems that I felt like could be attributed to some hoof care issues. So, I would still kind of on the side just because I really enjoyed it, still do some shoeing. But about a year out of veterinary school, I was working on some really bad laminitis cases, and I had the opportunity to meet Dr. Ric Redden. He was a expert that was flown in from his practice in Lexington, Kentucky to help us on these laminitis cases. And, and he had lots of answers to questions that I've had for a long time and some really good techniques. And once I started utilizing those in my practice, my success rates really improved and was in a mixed animal practice for about five years. And, and it got to a point where all I really wanted to do was horse feet.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (06:18):

And at some point in time that's all that people were calling me for in all reality anymore because that's what we were doing. And I finally gave up the battle of, you know, I felt like I went to veterinary school and spent a quarter million dollars to get educated to be a veterinarian. I shouldn't just be shoeing horses, but full circle, I've come back to it and it's in my mind one of the most important aspects of managing a horse. So, that's how I ended up in a specialized hoof practice, I guess is just out of demand in all reality.

 

Katy Starr (06:45):

Yeah, it's really interesting how you've been able to kind of integrate the two so closely together because I think anytime that, especially when there's such a need for it, it's such a great offering, I feel like for your clients to be able to have the specialty obviously of being a veterinarian but just knowing so much from the farrier side with horses hooves and everything, it's such a great combination.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (07:09):

It is, yeah. So, it, for me, it's a great career for me. I enjoy the physical aspect of it. I enjoy the mental aspect of it, understanding what I've learned from the veterinary side, but also pairing that with the physical skills and fabrication and, and ability to build devices needed to improve the comfort of a horse. It's a good job for me. My wife is able to deal with me after a day because I'm physically worn out. I can just come in and sit down if I, if I don't get physically worn out, she, she doesn't like me as much.

 

Katy Starr (07:41):

. And when we were kind of prepping for this episode too, there is an interesting fact that you shared with me that you did some veterinary work in Alaska for, was it a couple years?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (07:54):

I did, yes. In 2008 I was actually in the process of opening a practice and that's kind of when the economy had went bad here in the US and wasn't real excited about jumping off and borrowing a bunch of money. And I had this job opportunity to move to Alaska and worked for an equine practice. I, for some people that I had met at some of Dr. Redden's classes and clinics and they had asked me to move up there and work for them. And at the time I didn't have any children or really other business ties. So, it was just more of a let's go have some adventure and, and some fun for a couple years and see what it leads to. And it was fun. I, it definitely expanded my knowledge and gave me some experience and, and I was able to really work on my farrier skills there in all reality. Because I actually had some time off all of a sudden because I was in a very busy practice when I first got out ofveterinary school. And that practice was busy but not quite as busy. It was more normal, busy versus overwhelmingly busy.

 

Katy Starr (08:50):

Yeah. That's cool. What a cool experience. So, today we're going to focus on, we talked a little bit about hoof management and in regard to biomechanics, environment, and nutrition. So, why don't you talk to us a little bit about the biomechanics of the equine hoof and why it is so critical to the horse's overall soundness.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (09:11):

So, horses are directly affected by the physics that their legs offer. So, if you take, for example, your longer toe, lower heel type horses, that, that adds leverage and strain on flexor tendons. What's also interesting about horses' feet is that wherever they're loading excessively, they also decrease perfusion in those areas. So, they can be on the greatest nutrition and the greatest diet. However, if there's too much load in one specific growth center of the foot, it's just not getting what it needs. So, then you have atrophy of those areas, but you'll, you'll notice actually excessive growth in other areas trying to somewhat counteract some of those forces. So, the things that we can do to the foot mechanically alter the physics, helps redistribute those loads so we can get more even blood supply and nutrient supply to those, to those areas that are compromised. There's a lot of factors with biomechanics of the lower limb that they're somewhat born with. So, again, some of those biomechanic changes are innate physics relative to bone structure. And I think that's probably the biggest thing that I've had to recognize or have been able to recognize throughout my career is that they're born a certain way. We have to recognize it and manage it appropriately to improve their longevity versus blaming it on one specific type of management, sitting back and realizing that, hey, this guy was born with this kind of biomechanical disadvantage. Let's recognize it, mitigate it and improve that area so we can prevent lameness down the road.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (10:40):

Dr. Pittman, I've heard you speak before and I am recalling that was one of the highlights that I took away from hearing you speak the last time was that the fact that horses are born with a certain kind of bone or physical structure. And oftentimes we look at that and say, well, that's faulty. We need to fix it to look the way it, we think it should look. And maybe we're doing more harm than good. Trying to make them all fit into some universal box versus working with the bone structure that they've been given and trying to just make that work as best as it possibly can versus trying to make it look a certain way. I thought that was very interesting when I've heard you speak before.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (11:23):

Very true. And, and sometimes you have four different sets of physics or biomechanics on each leg. And oftentimes, you know, as a farrier I was asked to make them all match and make all the feet look the same. And the fact is that not all horses can you do that.

 

Katy Starr (11:40):

Is that kind of a common misunderstanding like that people request that of you, so they all do look consistent like that?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (11:49):

I think it is not so much in my practice at this point. I, I think I have noticed in my practice as it evolves that at this point in my career, I have very intelligent horsemen and trainers and owners by the time they get to me, have learned quite a bit. But there are still people, and I think in the standpoint of regular farrier practices, owners and trainers are often asking, Hey, those feet don't match, especially when you have this high low syndrome or, or one upright foot and one low foot, they're, they're always asked to try to match those two because they feel like it's important, but it's really not that important to make them match. It's just important to pay attention to the individual hoof and its specific biomechanics.

 

Katy Starr (12:29):

That's very interesting. I don't know that I would've assumed that prior, so that's really interesting. For sure. What would you say are maybe some subtle red flags or behaviors that horse owners could or should look for that could indicate that their horses hoof biomechanics aren't functioning properly before lameness sets in if they're able to?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (12:51):

There's lots of things. I think owners often and trainers are really good at picking up on things where, you know, they're just not picking up leads, right? Or maybe they're just not performing right, maybe they're not driving off their leads and, and changing leads like they were. So, there's lots of little things like that that could be hoof related problems. I think some, some pretty common ones that we run into are when a horse is pointing one foot, all of a sudden more than the other. There are some horses that just naturally, especially those high low type feet and club feet where they're, they're always going to hold the more upright foot and behind them and their lower foot out in front of them. But when you have horses that all of a sudden start when they're standing there and the cross ties just point a foot forward, that's oftentimes some early lameness signs.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (13:31):

Maybe they're not quite head bobbing lame yet, but, but definitely something to pay attention to. One of the big things too that owners and trainers can pay attention to is just changes in hoof wall growth. So, oftentimes you can have more heel growth than toe growth, so that's going to let you know that there's an uneven perfusion or load to the foot. So, if they're growing more heel than toe, and the opposite goes true for the toe if you're, if you're growing a lot more toe than heel, so you can pay attention to those growth rings. And if you see all of a sudden that you have a disparate growth anomaly between the toe and heel, then it's definitely something to ask your farrier about and see if there's something maybe that's changed in the shoeing or maybe some low grade laminitis or, or something like that.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (14:12):

Stumbling and tripping can oftentimes be some, some problems with the biomechanics of the foot and how they're managed that, you know, maybe some of the early signs as they just stumble and catch their toe, but down the road it can lead to some soft tissue injuries as well. So, anything that, or any horse that seems to be tender on firm ground. So, if, if you've got a horse with adequate foot mass and protection, realistically you should be able to walk them across gravel or firm ground and, and they not be sore. So, if you've got a horse that you walk across some firm ground or rocks, it's like, well, he's okay in the soft footing, but on hard ground he's definitely a little sore. That's just indicating that a horse doesn't have enough firm protective hoof mass. And even though he is okay in the soft footing, he's still very aware of every little move, he can feel the ground a little bit more. And, and just like if, if we take our shoes off and try to run across the gravel drive, we can do it, but we're looking at the ground and, and tensing our body and our core and, and trying to, trying to be prepared for every little rock that's there where if we put our shoes on and just take off running across the driveway, we're just pushing hard and, and don't even think about where our feet are in all reality.

 

Katy Starr (15:21):

That makes a lot of sense. Are there any common trimming or shoeing mistakes that you've observed, you know, throughout your time working with others or horse owners that can unintentionally throw off the hoof biomechanics, especially for like performance horses or trail horses that may be going over kind of differing terrain?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (15:43):

Yeah, I think we've covered a little bit already, but trying to, trying to fix things that can't be fixed is oftentimes a problem where, for example, a clubfoot where we're going to try to, you know, that that foot is growing more heel than toe and, and we try to take that heel off and, and lower it and stretch it down. That's definitely something that is fairly common, a common misunderstanding with management of feet where that looks like he's got too much heel, so let's, let's take it down. Well, that, that's going to inadvertently tighten a deep flexor tendon that's already tight and further compromise that foot. You know, obviously there's the aspects of taking too much foot off, so when we're over trimming them or when horses are in abrasiveenvironments and they're over trimming themselves even where they're just taking a lot of that foot mass away.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (16:29):

I think the other thing to recognize, I see a lot of my practice is failing to recognize some of these innate biomechanics where these horses do have a long toe and it's not so much the farrier's fault at taking off the heels and leaving too much toe as it is maybe just not recognizing that there can be something done more aggressive from a maintenance standpoint to help mitigate that leverage and, and keep that horse sounder longer. I think those are, those are probably two of the biggest things that I see in everyday management that in my practice where we could, we could recognize things from our hoof care standpoint to prevent that horse to ever actually having a problem or at least delaying it for sure.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (17:08):

I feel like this is a little bit off topic, but I have cattle here at my farm. There's huge horse farm next door, so I'm never without horses to ride, but I find in the summertime if I'm not up on my fly control and the cattle are constantly banging their foot on the ground, then I all of a sudden am getting more abscesses in the cattle's feet and they're getting sore. Is there other, you mentioned other management things, like that in a horse where you're living in a climate where maybe there's a lot of flies and you don't have good fly control and they're banging their feet on the ground, then that is that potentially causing undue stress on the hoof and causing an issue that then you've got to fix. But there wasn't really anything wrong with the horse, it was just this other management thing that was going on.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (17:56):

Or growing up in Australia, we had extremely dry weather and I remember my farrier always, we had sand in these stalls, and he would always make me put them in the stall and wet the sand and they had to stand in that for a few hours before he would come. And I don't know whether that was the right thing or not, but growing up in a, in a very drought, constant drought when it's 20 years of drought, then that was a thing that we dealt with was really hard, hard hooves. So, I don't know. You got any comments on other kind of things that are going on in the environment or the management of the horse that then you kind of see in the hoof management?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (18:34):

Environment plays a huge factor. I, I think it's probably not looked at as important in all reality a lot of times, but excessively wet environments probably create more troubles than excessively dry, at least in my practice. We have a mix of wet and dry here in north Texas where we're heading into our rainy season and now this is when feet are going to be really wet and soft and, and going to exfoliate very easily and, and have more thrush and, and not hold shoes. And that's paired with oncoming fly season as well. So, now they're starting to stomp flies and, and loosen shoes. And so I, in the springtime I get a lot of lot of cases that just run out of foot mass because of that where moisture and, and they lose a couple of shoes and the farriers can't get nails into them and they're sore.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (19:20):

And so then we have to, you know, move into some glue on shoes to help give them some protection while they can grow out. When it comes July-August around here, then it really dries up. We see very few problems from two dry feet because our, we're not that aired, it dries up the, the feet will shrink up a little bit, but there might be some mild chipping or cracking because of too dry. But honestly, preferably in my practice, I would rather have a hard, dry foot than a soft flexible hoof wall. I tell people it's, it's a lot like if you were to go into your house and completely saturate with water, all of the two by fours that support your walls with water, then all of a sudden they're going to start getting bendable and flexible and your roof's going to sag and your walls are going to bend out and flare.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (20:05):

And and that's what, that's what happens to hoof capsules and excessive moisture is that they're just not rigid enough to be able to support that horse's weight. So, farriers have this dishing, flared out wall that they're having to aggressively rasp and, and drag back in and, and at some point, run out of, run out of foot to do that with and, and have something to hold a nail. So, and then like I said, fly season comes along and they start stomping flies and, and loosening shoes and, and that definitely can, can be a factor.

 

Katy Starr (20:34):

That's such, such a great example with the structure of like a house and a hoof really helps visualize that a little bit better. So, very good. Kind of like staying in the environment topic when it comes to how it impacts the horse's hooves, are there any adjustments horse owners can make for horses that are living in stalls versus those that are in like 24/7 turnout to kind of help support better hoof function?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (21:02):

I think for sure regular exercise is helpful where if I do notice horses that just stand around more start to have different flares and different load signs in their hoof where especially on the horses that are on rest for rehab from an injury or something, you start to see that their hooves are actually growing different because their, their posture is such that combined with the lameness plus just standing there all the time, they'll have some abnormal growth problems that can occur that require different management. So, regular exercise I think is always helpful to keep blood supply their hoof is a lot like your fingernail. So, if you just press on your thumbnail, you'll turn, you'll see that it turns pale under load and you'll have more red of a fingernail opposite of where the load is and, and their foot's the same way. So, if they're excessively loading one aspect of the foot, then that's where you're going to have compromised growth.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (21:52):

So, the more they can move around and and push that blood supply around, you'll have a lot healthier foot. I think I see worse problems with horses that have thrush that are in stalls all the time because they're standing in, you know, either straw or shavings and manure and urine and, and that's a much greater environment for the thrush bacteria to grow in versus the horse that's turned out in the mud. Right now here, you know, where we're at in north Texas, there's a lot of this black mud sticky clay and my horses are out in it 24/7 and I'm not as good of a hoof care provider for my own horses as I as I recommend my clients to be. So, it's not like they get picked out every day, but when I do get out there to pick them out and we trim their feet, that mud will come out and it's pristine underneath and there's not any thrush at all.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (22:39):

But you have a, you know, I've got horses show horses that come in that never see the, never see the pasture or any mud at all and they're just living in stalls and getting their own feces and urine packed in there with, with the shavings and, and they'll have, you know, just some rampant thrush. So, definitely regular picking and then also treating that topically with some sort of disinfectant. There's lots of things on the, on the market likeDurasoleand Thrush Buster and there's lots of things that will help manage that bacterial population there.

 

Katy Starr (23:08):

We have structures obviously for our horses, but they never use them. they always like to be out in the elements, but the corral area where we tend to feed them is like a dry lot and we have pasture space and everything, but it always seems like it comes to be around February, probably March timeframe. It's like that in between where it's not super cool from the wintertime but it's trying very hard to get to spring weather where we do get so much mud, we end up having to feed, trying to spread it out into the pasture to help them break things up a little bit. But then also to help kind of make sure that they're not standing constantly in the mud all the time and potentially causing other problems down the road with their hooves. 

So many horse owners don't connect what they feed to their horse's hoof health I think, or maybe they think very heavily focus a lot on biotin. Can you explain how, from your experience, how nutrition directly impacts the biomechanics and structure of the hoof?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (24:15):

Yeah, I would say you guys may be better at answering than I am, but just from my experience, I do recommend a lot of biotin. I have had some experience with higher levels of biotin actually improving the quality and rate of growth much beyond what is recommended for, for the, for the daily amount, which is somewhere between 20 and 40 milligrams. Most of my laminitis cases that I work on and thin soled, you know, poor quality foot mass cases, they will go on about a hundred milligrams of biotin a day and, and I've had whole barns that that will start putting that, that degree of biotin on and they've had to shorten their shoeing cycle and there's not a ton of research to actually support that. I've found a couple of a couple of articles that that says that, you know, basically to a certain point and individual variability that with biotin, the more you give, the more you get up to a certain point.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (25:08):

But most of the horses that I work on and granted that they're, they're coming in and they're on every supplement known to man. So, for me it's hard to completely change their whole supplement package because they've, you know, they've already got this and they've already got that. So, for me, adding the, the biotin by itself is the easiest so I'm not over supplementing other things. So, in my case there's a, a couple products on the market where it's just a biotin methionine and that way I don't have to add worry about adding too many other things. But I think as a veterinarian I try to look at these cases and making sure that they're on at least ration balancers or hay balancers or something to help compliment and, and get that full nutrition that they need from the standpoint of their zinc and copper and all the things that are necessary to help grow that healthy hoof and, and all the, the keratin basically with all the amino acids that needs to be made.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (26:01):

So, I think most of the time I'm looking at making adjustments that they're not over supplemented. Now I know that in some cases obviously there's going to be some of the rescues that I do work for that come in with very malnourished donkeys and horses that, that obviously you can see that once you start getting them a better plate of nutrition and getting all the nutrients that they need that their hoof care changes drastically. And so it's obviously important. I think again, most of the cases that I work on are, are fat and on too many supplements and, and people don't sit down and really just look at all the things that they're, that they're feeding them. And we don't have high selenium forages here or high selenium is not usually a problem here. But just in the past year I, I know of probably six or eight cases of, of selenium toxicity and, and creating some, some hoof problems with that. And it, and it mostly is because they were, they were given too much selenium in their supplements that paired with maybe some higher, higher alfalfa selenium that was coming from out west. But like I said, most of the time it's we're overfeeding and over supplementing.

 

Katy Starr (27:09):

Interesting. Dr. Cubitt, do you have some thoughts on nutrition as well?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (27:13):

Yeah, I would definitely agree. I mean I think that we literally kill a horses with kindness and okay, so someone says my horse has, or you just know that it, it's never had great feet and so I'm going to, someone recommended this supplement and that supplement and then I read on the internet and I'll try that one too. And so once one hoof supplement by itself, if I'd like to actually look for ones that are a little bit more well-rounded, maybe copper, zinc, biotin, methionine. But yeah, when you start to add them, layer them on top and on top and then you maybe already feeding a commercial concentrate that's highly fortified, then definitely you then start to alter the correct balance of those nutrients as well. So, you get too much zinc, and it blocks the uptake of copper, you get too much phosphorus in your diet and it's blocking calcium, that kind of thing.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (28:07):

So, I think unintentionally people make a lot of mistakes exactly by layering supplement or product on product on product. And really one of the first places that I go when someone says, "I'm not sure my horse has the best feed," is I look at what are you feeding? Have you got a balanced diet? Are you feeding enough forage? And perhaps looking at improving gut health first. I've seen a lot of success with just adding a digestive health supplement because in the forage, in the feed, you've got all these nutrients but perhaps your forge isn't the highest in nutritional value and if we can unlock more nutrients there or we can improve the efficiency or digestibility of those nutrients, I mean biotin is a B vitamin. You got good healthy bugs in the hindgut, they should be making biotin enough for a horse that doesn't have severe hoof issues.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (29:06):

So, I always actually start by looking at gut health first and then if we need to go that next step, then looking at a well-rounded hoof supplement. But it is quite eye-opening when you get a client to say, okay, we're going to write down everything you feed your horse. And so something may not be, they might be feeding a hoof supplement, they might be feeding a supplement for coat quality. Well remember hoof is just hard hair, so everything that's going to improve the hair coat is also going to be something that you would feed for hoof quality. So, unintentionally we could be having excessive amounts of copper and zinc. So, yeah, I definitely think that people unintentionally oftentimes over supplement knocking out balance and then forget about just basic gut health. I feel like if we focus on just improving digestive efficiency in gut health and the microbiome, then any number of diseases we can try and improve by just improving gut health.

 

Katy Starr (30:08):

Yeah, excellent. And I think that also is why we frequently talk about how if you're able to work with your veterinarian and an equine nutritionist to have a team put together to work with you on these things, it can kind of help prevent issues like that happening with over supplementing. I mean because the other thing that comes with over supplementing besides potentially causing some issues with your horses is you're spending money that you might not have to and everybody knows how expensive horses are, and so if you can save money in such, I guess a simple way like that, it's like a win-win. So, that's how I kind of look at it. So, Dr. Pittman, as an equine veterinarian and farrier, in your experience working with clients, what would you say is probably most often misunderstood by horse owners about horse hoof care?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (31:01):

We talked a little bit earlier about this, but the environment, how much of a factor it has on the hoof quality. I think we as horse owners often look at the hoof as just a block of wood that's on the end of the horse's foot and we can trim it and make it into whatever we want it to be. But understanding that it is a, a live structure and there is blood supply and it's affected by how we trim it and management and how the environment is around it affects the overall health of it is probably one of the misunderstood things that, that I see is we think, well surely you can just trim it whichever way you want to, but realizing that not very far inside of that hard protective horn is live sensitive structures that is responsible for making that horn. So, that's a big factor.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (31:45):

I think management regular hoof care and management is another thing that can get thrown by the wayside thinking that, well just letting them go another couple of extra weeks is not always a big deal, but that couple extra weeks adds a little bit more leverage to the wall and creates flares and more leverage on the deep flexor tendon and can definitely over time have some, some effects on, on soundness. I think the impact you can have at having an accurate and consistent hoof care program for preventing those wear and tear type lameness's that are going to show up potentially anyway. But if you consistently go long and, and healthcare and the feet stay long, then you're having a low grade long-term impact on soft tissue that that changes over time. A lot of the things that we work on as lameness veterinarians can be some acute injuries, but a, a large majority of it is chronic wear and tear type injuries.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (32:45):

So, when we can recognize biomechanics and say, hey, because of this limb confirmation, because of this hoof confirmation, these are the areas that can be under greater levels of stress. Here's how we need to manage this horse's feet and schedule to help prevent that. And I think that's one of the things that I've learned throughout my career is I wish I would've learned more about biomechanics in veterinary school to say, hey, if you have this confirmation the leg is this way, then this part of the knee or this part of the foot or this fetlock is going to be under greater load and as he gets into the prime of his career eight to fifteen, that's what you're going to have to have start having problems with. So, let's recognize that when he's two and going into training and start mitigating that early on and, and maybe we're not missing the World Show because our horse is lame at fifteen, in prime of his career.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (33:37):

And I think, you know, we touched on that earlier about the industry somewhat trying to encourage us to put all these horses into the same box, so they all look the same. And I do a lot of weightlifting at my gym and one of the things that I find as fascinating that we talk about a lot is when a human does a squat, like sits down, stands up and depending on your femur length, some people have really long legs and some people have short legs and a long torso and they'll both squat completely differently and a trainer will have to kind of, it's your biomechanics and depending on your body type will teach you different ways to do the same exercise. And so, I think it's really interesting, and I'm sorry for the horses that we're all late to this, but I think that more may be coming to the idea that we are working with every horse being unique and having its own movement pattern based on its structure.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (34:36):

The other comment that I'm interested in, I would say, I don't know, maybe 20, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, I don't know, a horse was probably in its prime much earlier in its life. And now we as veterinarians, farriers, nutritionists are asked to try and keep these horses going well into their twenties, maybe even thirties and keep them sound. So, the idea that a lot of this is just low-grade, long-term wear and tear. Now I've just put another 10 or 15 years on the productive life of this horse because we are better at kind of keeping these things alive, but that we as owners are just expecting them to kind of have a, a longer sounder career than 20 or 30 years ago. Long rambling question. I'm sorry.

 

Katy Starr (35:32):

So you had kind of mentioned a little bit before about a lot of issues coming down to like basic wear and tear. Would you say that that's probably the most common cause of lameness in your experience or is there something else that you see more frequently with the like the main cause of lameness?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (35:50):

Yeah, I would say that factors around that are definitely some of the most common things that I work on. I would say one of the biggest epidemics that I see in the performance horse world is this long toe, low heel type confirmation. It seems like maybe it's just because of my subset of horses that I work on right now, but it seems like genetically we see more and more of that across all disciplines so that that's leading to morecoffinjoint injuries and deep flexor tendon injuries, more biomechanically induced navicular problems. I think one of the things that maybe our traditional farrier training that I had maybe didn't accommodate that style of horse very well, whereas I've had to make different recommendations and, and and different management protocols to help reduce some of that leverage that this horse is born with. So, I'd say one of the biggest things that, that I see are those lameness's associated with that.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (36:42):

And then I think that laminitis again is another one of those things that I deal a whole lot with. And the horses that that we work on now are often, they're overweight, there's lots of other stressors involved with maybe heat stress or showing stress. They're getting some maybe steroid injections for the joints and, like Dr. Cubitt talked to a little bit earlier about how the age of these horses is also getting older and older. So, you know, we've got horses that are still performing at 17, 18 years of age and their metabolism is slowing down. Maybe they're getting into the realm of PPID or Cushing's and that's just another layer of added stress that leads to these laminitis type episodes. So, I see quite a few laminitis cases that are relative to that metabolic aspect and all those things kind of stack up on top of, on top of each other to create the same problem.

 

Katy Starr (37:34):

We talked a little bit earlier obviously about the importance of making sure that we're consistent with scheduling our trims and things like that, but if, and of course there's no one size fits all here, but if you were working with a pretty healthy horse, no underlying like medical conditions or anything like that, they have a really good diet and things like that, what would your ideal hoof management plan look like for a just a very basic horse like that?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (38:03):

Yeah, I would say it does get difficult to say because horses are so different, even though everything else is healthy, their environments are different, they're, what the owners are doing with them are different. But on average all horses are going to fit into like a five-to-eight-week schedule. So, you know, in horses that are really arid environments, they're not, their feet are hard and dry, they're not being ridden a whole lot. They may need to be trimmed a little bit more frequently because they're just not wearing their feet off and they're hard and dry and, and maybe they're not being ridden a lot. Whereas in the wintertime in Alaska you might be able to go for 8 to 10 weeks because their feet slow down drastically in the wintertime with growth because they're trying to stay warm and grow hair. So, it's really, it may differ throughout the, throughout the year.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (38:48):

I know, I know it does here in Texas, like just coming out of this couple of cold spells that we've recently had horses that are coming in this week just haven't really grown a whole lot now in the next month or two they're going to, they're going to grow a bunch and I wish I, you know, hopefully realized that and shortened their cycle and, and do them a little bit sooner. So, there's a lot of factors that do affect that. But somewhere between that five- and eight-week mark, is going to cover most horses in all environments. And, and that's where talking with your farrier as they're out there and looking ahead towards the future of what the environment is, what the temperature going to be, is going to be important in in maintaining that.

 

Katy Starr (39:26):

And I've heard this question amongst some forums and online chit chat with horse owners. They talk about hooves that crack easily and their experiences with that. What would you say a horse owner can do for their horse that have hooves that do crack easily? How can they support that horse?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (39:47):

So, obviously, good nutrition, right? Yeah, that's what this podcast is all about, .

 

Katy Starr (39:54):

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (39:54):

There are a couple of products, obviously we've talked about the environment. So, if you can keep them from standing in super wet environments, if you're in a wet environment, like again this time of year and, and coming into March and April, we get a lot of moisture and I start applying a product called Kera-Prep and it is a hoof hardener, it's going to make the, the hooves a little bit more waterproof. It's a high, it creates a, it's about one of the only, Kera-Prep and Keratex hoof hardener are the only products on the market that actually increase the number of sulfur bonds in between each keratin tubule. So, it's going to make that hoof wall more hydrophobic and repel water and strengthen that existing horn. And then your good nutrition is going to come in with growing new and better horn. So, you can have cracking and chipping and flaring because that wall gets more flexible and bendable.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (40:42):

So, then it becomes more of a lever arm and then instead of just being hard and wearing off, it tends to bend and split and crack from that standpoint. On the other side of the spectrum, you do have horses' hooves that get too dry and then they're too brittle and then in that aspect there, they're going to be more likely to crack instead of bend and flex like they should. So, you can add some hoof moisturizers in drier climates. There's lots of those out there. One I like the best is called HydroHoof. It's not quite as oily. Some of the other ones are an oil base or, or conditioned base and then just from a farrier standpoint, I don't like them because you, you pick their feet up and they're all greasy, but the HydroHoof doesn't seem to do that quite as bad. So, it's really takes a matter of evaluating your environment and the time of year and saying, hey, I think because it's wet and going to be wet, I would rather go with a hoof hardener and that's going to strengthen it and prevent that. Or if my farrier is coming to trim them and he's having trouble getting through the hooves with a nipper and his knife, then maybe I need to add a little bit of moisture to that foot.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (41:44):

And I mean those products that you've mentioned are kind of instantaneous. I can do it when I see the environment has changed. When we're talking about making a nutritional change to perhaps alleviate some of those issues. Tell our listeners how long it takes for a hoof to grow out.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (42:03):

Yeah, correct. Yeah. You're looking at 8 to 12 months. Obviously about 7 millimeters a month on average is what a wall's going to grow, seven to 10 depending on, again, lots of variables there, but you can start feeding a better plane of nutrition or make the change that you need to and it's not something you're really going to see the benefits of for a few months. You will see some of that upper wall growth start to come in a little bit healthier looking, that periople will be a little bit better. But until that hoof wall is on the ground surface, when it's actually in the, in the plain of wear, you still may have chipping until that happens.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (42:39):

. Yeah, I was going to say it's probably one of the most, for my clients, one of the most frustrating areas that we try to correct with nutrition because of the timeline. Anything else, oh, they've got some diarrhea, well we might try this, and it might fix that. They've got poor coat quality well we're maybe 30, 60 days and we can improve that. But the length of time and, and horse owners just get frustrated and I'm not seeing anything. So, I changed to another thing, and I changed to another thing. And if they had have just stuck with it from the beginning, then by the time they've gotten through 5 products and they don't see any changes, well they may have if they had a stuck with it. So, I am thankful for you reiterating that it's not an instant fix when we're looking at changing the diet to improve hoof quality.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (43:26):

Yeah. The hoof wall that's on the ground that we're trimming and nailing is relative to diet and environment a long time ago.

 

Katy Starr (43:33):

That's such a great point and again, why it's so helpful, I think to be working with your veterinarian, equine nutritionist and I mean in this case your farrier, because having that insight I think will help you making sure that you're making good adjustments, but giving it the time that it deserves because with horse care management some things are more instantaneous where other things just take a little bit longer to get figured out and allow the horse to change and evolve.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (44:02):

I have a random question, and I know we are, we're getting into a long time, but I know myself when I was pregnant, my feet changed, and my feet are still changed. What happens with , with mares? You know, maybe you've had a performance mare, and you've had, you know, you've been riding her, and you've had a, a farrier that's been really great and then she's done her performance career and now she becomes a broodmare. Do you see a lot of changes in her feet when she's pregnant? You have to do different things. Her biomechanics, she's got a giant fat belly. .

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (44:37):

Yeah, I think obviously a lot of their daily husbandry changes if they're a performance horse and they're, they're being fully taken care of in stalls and regular trimming and environment's nice and then if oftentimes when they go into broodmare status, they're probably turned out a little bit more and so then they're, you know, it's a little bit more moist. So, as far as weight goes, it's just a matter of physics. It's a math equation where if you've got, she's got the same size bone structure, she's got the same size hoof and lamellae attachments, but now we added 2 or 300 pounds to her, so then that same structure has to carry more weight. So, you do and can see those horses, their hoods tend to flare and pancake out a little bit more. And then obviously they're going to have different postures late, late term gestation where maybe they're standing a little bit wider.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (45:25):

So, now all of a sudden you're, you're seeing a flare at a different spot, more, more on the inside than the outside. And so there's yeah, definitely, definitely some changes for many factors that, again, the extra weight and then their environmental and, and husbandry management changes. So, then sometimes it's, they can get a little neglected, I think where they saw they're just broodmares. We only trim them a couple times a year, so I, I can see some, I can see some pretty horrific broodmare feet that come in because they're just, you know, they don't pay as much attention to them as when they were winning the blue ribbons.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (45:57):

Yeah, interesting. And I just have one more thing, sorry I'm taking up time, but it's very interesting.

 

Katy Starr (46:02):

No this is great. That was interesting.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (46:05):

. It's super interesting. I feel like I was very, very fortunate as a young child in pony club in Australia. We got to listen to, I'm sure you know of him, Dr. Chris Pollitt, and he came and did a demonstration and he had these dead legs in a hydraulic contraption and he had it cut in half and he would press it up and down and we were all enamored and floored with you think that the hoof is such a hard, solid, rigid structure, but the amount of flexibility and movement in the foot, I remember from a young, very young age thinking, wow, it's just quite amazing how this thing that we think is so hard actually has so much movement. I don't know whether there's really any comment to that.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (46:53):

No, it is, I actually spoke to Dr. Pollitt yesterday. So, yeah, he's a , well respected guy in the, in the hoof care industry and, and has done a lot of really good research that a lot of us have paid attention to in our career. But if the understanding that a horse has to be able to deal with very uneven surfaceswith an immense amount of force coming down above that, and if the, if the foot and lamina and the hoof capsule and the whole lower leg wasn't able to deal with that amount of, and have that be able to give and flex with it, then they would snap their leg off every time they, they went into a cantor. So, it most definitely has to be a very flexible structure for sure. It's amazing that I know I've been doing, I've done surgery where you have to open the bottom of the sole and to debride a coffin bone and you can take your, your curetteor whatever your surgical instrument is and put it on the coffin bone and move the coffin bone around inside the hoof quite a bit. And that's a normal thing for them. So, because of that lamellar bond and ability for that bone to flex and do what it's supposed to is what allows them to, to have a job like that. Otherwise, like I said, they, I think they would probably snap their leg off the first time they ran.

 

Katy Starr (48:07):

Yeah, that's pretty amazing. So, as we wrap this episode up, Dr. Pittman, what would you say are some of your key takeaways that you would like to leave listeners with about horse hoof health management?

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (48:23):

I think I could save a lot of horses if owners just wouldn't feed them too much. I think if anytime anybody asks me what's the most important thing that I could learn about managing my horse's feet is like, keep them at the right body condition score and you will save a lot of horses. I, I look back and 80 to 90% of the founder horses that I work on are all overfed, they're all human induced. So, if we can take that factor out, then maybe I don't even have a job anymore and that'd be great. But I think that's the biggest factor is just look at your horses, get with a nutritionist or just learn yourself how to evaluate the body condition scoring system. Or if your veterinarian has a scale in his clinic, get some, make that a part of your routine management is just manage their weight appropriately and you'll save yourself a whole lot of heartache.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (49:11):

Another thing is, is again, staying consistent with your farrier and trimming. A lot of times too, it's, it's very helpful for your farrier that you have some biannual, at least foot radiographs taken to evaluate that hoof health, evaluate the sole depth, see how things are going and changing because you can pick up on some of those minor details before they're a problem and, and make adjustments before you have lameness going down the road again, recognizing those innate biomechanics via those radiographs and your farriers understanding of anatomy to help mitigate possibly problems down the road would be the last thing that I would say would, would be really important to management of health.

 

Katy Starr (49:51):

That's excellent. Dr. Cubitt, do you have anything that you'd like to add on this?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (49:55):

No, I mean, I 100% agree. I think as an industry, horses are rewarded for, unfortunately in a lot of disciplines being overweight. And that's something that we are as researchers trying to address. But definitely it's not just hoof quality, it is disease states. It's so many different things. You know, most people have a guttural reaction when they see a thin horse, and I have it when I see a fat horse because unless there's something wrong with the thin horse, I can feed it and put some weight on it. But when he's fat, you have changed his hormones forever. He is altered even if you get the body weight off him. So, and I shouldn't just say him, him or her, so I would 100% agree obesity, fat is not the best color. I've seen that in many barns. Take that sign down. .

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (50:46):

Yeah, they call them easy keepers.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (50:49):

It's actually not that way. It's so hard to keep a fat horse.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (50:52):

It's a hard keeper. Yeah. Yes, because it's, it takes more restriction to keep them, to keep them skinny, whereas a yes, an easy keeper for me is, is a horse that can just be turned out and forgotten about and they can eat whatever and, and they stay in good shape. But yes, these ones that, that stay fat, then it, they require a lot more discipline from the owner and a lot more calculation with, with hay quantities and what you have to feed them, because it, it's a lot of work for the, for a lot of my owners to be able to, to get that weight off of them. That's one of the best things I added to my practice was the scale. When the weight tapes are nice and it's very helpful, but in all reality, when the weight tape isn't measuring what they want it to say, they, they think, oh, I just put it in the wrong spot.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (51:37):

Squeeze it a little tighter. Yeah.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (51:39):

When they have to walk in my clinic door and the first thing they do is walk across a scale, then their feet are held to the fire with a, with a number. That's been definitely one of the best things for me.

 

Katy Starr (51:48):

That's a very interesting point. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for being here, Dr. Pittman. I really enjoyed our conversation today. I feel like I learned a lot and you know, I've heard you talk before as well and it's been fun having this conversation with you. And so, I just want to remind our listeners that if you have any topics that you would like us to cover on the Beyond the Barn podcast, please reach out to us at podcast@standlee.com. We love to hear from you, hear your feedback, and what you want to hear more about on the podcast. So, thanks again for being here today, Dr. Pittman and Dr. Cubitt. I appreciate your time. Thanks.

 

Dr. Sammy Pittman (52:26):

Thanks for having me.

 

Katy Starr (52:28):

We hope you got as much out of today's episode. As we did, Dr. Pittman shared so many great insights about hoof health, biomechanics, and the big picture of keeping our horse's sound. If you want to keep learning from him, be sure to check out Innovative Equine Podiatry and Veterinary Services online. They're sharing tons of helpful hoof care tips and real-world case studies over on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. We'll drop all the links in the show notes so you can find them easily. And if you had a big a-ha moment during this episode, we'd love to hear about it. Shoot us a message or tag us in your takeaways. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll catch you next time. Thanks for listening to the Beyond the Barn podcast by Standlee Forage. We'd love for you to share our podcast with your favorite people and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite listening platform. Until next time, keep your cinch tight and don't forget to turn off the water.