Ep. 087: Is Your Horse Deficient? The Critical Role of Vitamin A and E in Their Diet

Episode Notes

On this episode, co-hosts Dr. Tania Cubitt and Katy Starr discuss the critical role of vitamin A and vitamin E in horse diets, including:

• How to tell if your horse is deficient in vitamin A or vitamin E
• Which type of vitamin E is more bioavailable to your horse – Natural or synthetic?
• Can an excess of vitamin A or vitamin E in the diet interfere with the absorption of other vitamins?

Learn why choosing the RIGHT vitamin E supplement matters for your horse! Dr. Cubitt breaks down the key differences between synthetic and natural vitamin E supplements, along with which one is best to use and how to use it most effectively for your horse.

Have a topic idea or feedback to share? We want to connect with you! Email podcast@standlee.com

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*Views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the view of Standlee Premium Products, LLC.*

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Scientific references – 

~ 17:05 - National Research Council. 2007. Nutrient Requirements of Horses: Sixth Revised Edition. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press.

~18:23 – Benefit of vitamin A to help with uveitis - Yadav UC, Kalariya NM, Ramana KV. Emerging role of antioxidants in the protection of uveitis complications. Curr Med Chem. 2011;18(6):931-42. 

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Read full episode transcript

Katy Starr (00:01):

Hi, I'm Katy.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (00:02):

And I'm Dr. Cubitt. We're going Beyond the Barn. Come join us on this journey as we bust equine and livestock nutrition myths, and interview some of the most intriguing experts in the country.

 

Katy Starr (00:15):

We'll go behind the scenes of how premium Western quality forage is grown and brought to your favorite farm and ranch retail store. We're so glad you're here. Welcome back to another episode of Beyond the Barn, Dr. Cubitt. It's good to have you back with us today.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (00:33):

As always, glad to be back.

 

Katy Starr (00:34):

Today we're going to be talking about vitamin A and vitamin E. We've done a podcast episode before where we talk about vitamins and minerals, kind of, I think more on toxicities and deficiencies. But today we're going to get a little bit of a, take a deeper dive into vitamin A and vitamin E for horses. So, I think it'll be a good conversation for our listeners today.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (00:57):

Absolutely.

 

Katy Starr (00:57):

And just as a reminder, any of the topics that we cover on the Beyond the Barn podcast are more generalized and are not specific to any individual horse or any specific situation. Be sure to always work with your veterinarian and nutritionist before making any drastic changes to your horse's feed program. Or you can reach out and talk directly to Dr. Duren and Dr. Cubitt on specifics that you would like to know. And so, Dr. Cubitt, can you, kind of, lay some groundwork with what are vitamins A and E?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (01:29):

So, vitamin A and E are both fat-soluble vitamins, which means that they're consumed in the diet, absorbed in through the intestinal wall, and stored in the fat. And so, we think about these in in a wild horse's diet, primarily coming from forage. And if you think about forage availability, it's seasonal, hence the ability to store these vitamins in the fat. So, in the springtime when there's abundant fresh green grass, there's abundant availability of vitamin A and vitamin E, and it's being absorbed and stored in the animal's fat. And then, in the summertime it might wane a little. The grass dries off, burns off a little bit, we're not absorbing as much. In the fall, again, we have an influx of those fall grasses and green lush grass. And so, we're absorbing more vitamin A and vitamin E, storing it in the fat. And then, in most areas in the wintertime, it's either covered in snow or there's no availability. And so, the animal can draw on those stores that are in the fat. Unlike a water-soluble vitamin, like vitamin B for example, there are many different Vitamin Bs. They are produced by the bacteria in the horse's gut. When those bacteria break down fiber, which they're doing every day, all day, they produce B vitamins. So, there's a lot of water-soluble vitamin receptors in the gut because those animals are constantly producing those, or the microbes are constantly producing those and they're constantly being absorbed, unlike your fat-soluble being stored in the fat.

 

Katy Starr (03:09):

Excellent. And what would you say are the benefits of either of those vitamins for horses?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (03:16):

I mean, vitamin E is one. I try not to say that something does everything, but there's a couple of nutrients that we feed to horses, vitamin E, Omega 3s, that just have so many benefits in the horse. You know, when I think about vitamin A, I think about retinal health. So, eye health, I think about reproduction specifically in brood mares. Vitamin E though, vitamin E is a powerful antioxidant. Everything that stresses an animal, which we've talked about before. Everything stresses horses, its causing cell death, its causing breakdown, and an antioxidant is trying to interfere with that and slowdown that cell death or cell breakdown. So, antioxidants are used everywhere in the body, in every kind of biochemical pathway, in any, every part of aging. Antioxidants are used. So, vitamin E across the board is just so important.

 

Katy Starr (04:17):

Talk to us a little bit more about vitamin E because there's some differing, there's a lot out there. It makes, we were talking a little bit earlier about how vitamin A is a little bit more simplified. Vitamin E gets a little bit more complex. So, talk to us a little bit about how that works.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (04:34):

Well so, both vitamin A and vitamin E, and I know I'm skipping ahead, we'll talk about it a little bit later, but vitamin A and vitamin E are both when you cut grass and preserve it as hay, they're both lost. And so, that's kind of why we couple them together. We're talking about forages, they're both lost in the forage. But when it comes to vitamin A, commercial concentrates that we buy for horses have adequate amounts of vitamin A. We don't worry about vitamin A necessarily being deficient in the equine diet. Vitamin E on the other hand, we know because it has such importance in lots of different aspects, whether it be Cushing's disease or other metabolic issues or aging or muscular issues or neuromuscular issues, we kind of put more focus on vitamin E. Vitamin E can also be quite expensive, so it's something that a lot of horse owners will supplement. They will buy it additionally to whatever commercial concentrate they're buying. Vitamin A is not necessarily a kind of, abundantly available or requested supplement, oh, I'm going to buy a vitamin A supplement for my horse. It's not something that we hear about a lot. But vitamin E, it is a supplement that if you go into most horse owner’s barns, vitamin E is probably something that they've either supplemented in the past, supplement currently with, or have thought about supplementing. So, definitely more of a hot topic.

 

Katy Starr (06:02):

And then, what is the difference between D alpha tocopherol and DL alpha tocopherol?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (06:10):

So, unfortunately, when manufacturers label products, they don't just make it super easy for us and don't write "natural vitamin E" or "synthetic vitamin E". There are two different forms of vitamin E commercially available for horses, and one is a synthetic form manufactured to mimic the natural form of vitamin E. It was primarily used in a lot of commercial concentrates, so bagged feeds, and when you see it on a label, you'll see in the ingredients list, "Dl alpha-tocopherol" will be listed sometimes after that, there'll be in parentheses, and it might say "vitamin E supplement" or "form of vitamin E" or something like that. The little L is the indicator that that is the synthetic form of vitamin E. If you see "D alpha-tocopherol" with no little L in there, that is natural vitamin E, that's the form of natural vitamin E. Most manufacturers on the ingredient statement after that will have "form of natural vitamin E". So, if it doesn't say "a form of natural vitamin E" or "natural vitamin E" in parentheses, you can pretty much rest assured that it's the "DL", because we want horse owners to know that it's natural Vitamin E, natural vitamin E is preferred. It's more bio-available, it does cost more.

 

Katy Starr (07:31):

Okay. And are there any specific nutrients that affect the absorption or the effectiveness of vitamin A or vitamin E in the horse's body?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (07:41):

Well actually, they can affect each other. If you have too much vitamin E in the horse's diet, it will affect the uptake of vitamin A and vice versa. So, everything in moderation, whilst I am preaching that vitamin E is important and it's really good for, kind of, overcoming a lot of disorders and supporting horse health, you certainly don't want too much. We measure fat-soluble vitamins in IUs, international units per pound or per gram. Typically, it's per pound. And you may have heard anything from 250, to 500, to 1,000, to 10,000. When it comes to vitamin E, we don't want to feed more than 10,000 IUs of vitamin E per day. If you get over that, research has shown that it will start to interfere with the uptake of other fat-soluble vitamins. Vitamin A, a less concern. I don't need horse owners to know exactly how much that they're feeding horses, because it's a little less, kind of, invasive than vitamin E can be. And maybe it's because horse owners, everybody knows that vitamin E is important and wants to add it to the horse's diet. And anytime you have those thoughts people are like, oh, well more must be better, more must be better. And no, it's not that case at all.

 

Katy Starr (09:04):

Okay. And you kind of hinted at this a few minutes ago, but how does vitamin A and vitamin E content in hay compare to fresh pasture?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (09:14):

So, fresh pasture is readily available in vitamin A and vitamin E. Abundant in fresh pasture, especially fresh green pasture, very high in vitamin A and vitamin E. Once you cut it, these fat-soluble vitamins are, once you cut the hay, cut the grass I should say, and then it starts drying, it starts going into its own stress. What is vitamin E, in particular, and vitamin A? They're antioxidants. So, they're kind of, they get used in the preserving of that. So, they get cannibalized when that hay is curing. The sunlight, the air, in order for that forage not to rot, that vitamin A and vitamin E are being used to help preserve that. So, the amount of vitamin A and vitamin E in that, now hay, gets pretty much immediately...

 

Katy Starr (10:09):

Kind of, used up? Essentially?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (10:10):

Used up, yes. Used up, for lack of a better word. So, I think different research studies have shown different lengths of time, but I think we can pretty much say that within a two-week period, 60 to 70% of the vitamin A and vitamin E is gone out of that forage.

 

Katy Starr (10:28):

Okay. And can you talk a little bit about, because Standlee, PHN for Standlee did a little bit of this research, can you talk a little bit more about that?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (10:37):

We did! So, Standlee is unique in the way that once the hay, well the grass, the forage plant, whether it be alfalfa or the grasses, are cut because Standlee's hay is produced in an area that is actually very dry, there's not a lot of humidity. So, that cut forage does not sit out in the field in the light very long at all.

 

Katy Starr (11:03):

Right.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (11:03):

You can cut it and, in a few days, you can bale it. And then, immediately those bales are put undercover and out of the sunlight. And the sunlight is one of the worst for removing, for breaking down that vitamin E and vitamin A. And so, we found that the Standlee alfalfa and grass products had considerably higher vitamin E and vitamin A as compared to other more, kind of, normally harvested hays that aren't able to be put immediately undercover and out of the sunlight. They had much higher levels of vitamin A and vitamin E, because we're able to get it out of the sunlight so quickly.

 

Katy Starr (11:47):

Right, right. And how do seasonal changes in pasture quality affect the availability of vitamin A and vitamin E?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (11:56):

So, in the summer and the winter, vitamin A and vitamin E decrease. In the spring and fall you have your highest influx.

 

Katy Starr (12:03):

Okay. And for a horse that's out on pasture, and we know not everybody has that ability to have good amount of pasture where that is their main source, like especially in the summertime for their horses. But about how many hours of grazing do you think a horse would need to be out? And obviously, I know there's going to be differences depending on the height of that feed, the quality of that feed, the pasture, but if you were out on some good, lush pasture, about how many hours of grazing do you think a horse would need to, kind of, be sufficiently, I guess, supplemented with vitamin A or vitamin E? Or are they going to still need some additional on top of that?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (12:44):

So, the general rule of thumb for a horse at maintenance, so not doing a boatload of exercise, certainly not being ridden, just maintaining his current body weight. The horse needs two acres of pasture, that's just them, no other horses on it. Two acres to them, it's got 70% plant coverage of plants that they're eating, not toxic weeds or noxious weeds. And it has to be six inches tall, at least six inches tall or taller. And from that, 24-hour access to that, the kind of general recommendation is that they can maintain their body weight, they can get enough calories, protein, vitamins and minerals. Majority of vitamins and minerals I should say, probably selenium, copper, and zinc are going to be deficient, but the other nutrients will be available in enough quantities to maintain the horse. Now, what we have is vast majority of our horses are performance horses doing light to heavy exercise or they're aged horses. So, an aged horse has an elevated requirement for vitamin E because they're in a kind of, exaggerated or hyper-state of cell death because they're, kind of, at the end of their life. And so, their immune system's failing, everything's failing, and that powerful antioxidant of vitamin E is required in a little higher amounts.

 

Katy Starr (14:05):

Okay. Do different types of forage, for example, like alfalfa versus grass hay have varying levels of vitamin A or vitamin E?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (14:13):

We have seen that vitamin A and vitamin E directly correlated to the "greenness". So, really dark forages, like an alfalfa, do have more vitamin A and vitamin E.

 

Katy Starr (14:23):

Okay. And then how do factors, I mean you just talked about an older horse needing more vitamin E due to just deterioration of the body and everything...

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (14:34):

Aging.

 

Katy Starr (14:35):

Yeah, so, aside from age, how do other factors besides age, activity level, pregnancy, affect the requirements for horses' vitamin A and vitamin E levels?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (14:45):

So, we know that vitamin A is really important for reproduction and so, the vitamin A requirements will increase for brood mares, stallions, growing horses. Vitamin E, we know that that increases certainly with activity level, so the higher amount of performance that a horse is doing. We also know that horses that have a kind of, suppressed immune system, so older horses, horses with metabolic syndrome, horses that have muscular issues or nervous disorders can benefit from higher levels of vitamin E.

 

Katy Starr (15:23):

Excellent, okay. And you had said earlier that I think it was about 10,000 IUs was kind of like your limit for vitamin E before it would impact those fat-soluble vitamins, right?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (15:37):

The uptake of other vitamins, yeah.

 

Katy Starr (15:39):

Okay. So, is that like your max in the diet? That 10,000 IUs is, kind of, your standard requirements for just like a regular horse then?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (15:49):

No, no, no. 10,000 is like the max that I would ever recommend along with a veterinarian saying, okay, this horse is deficient, we've really got to get it up. It's got, maybe it's got EPM, or it's got some neuromuscular disorder, it's got some muscle wasting, we've got a lot of things going on. That would be a horse that I might say okay, for a period of time, not forever, maybe three months, a month, whatever it takes, we're going to do really, really high doses, maybe 10,000 IUs a day, but it won't be long-term. And it's certainly not all horses, because that is very expensive as well.

 

Katy Starr (16:27):

Yeah, yeah, that yeah, you mentioned that. Okay. So, I mean realistically then, just based off what you've said so far, most horses will do just fine on having like a good quality hay in their diet, a ration balancer, or a concentrate with whatever they're needing for, if they maybe in higher activity levels or something like that, really is going to get them the requirement that they need for vitamin A and vitamin E. And if there's something else going on, like realistically, we need to be working with our veterinarian and nutritionist.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (17:01):

Most horses, yeah, start there. That's a baseline. Most horses that exercise, so the Nutrient Requirements Council, the NRC that's set for horses, which is pretty out of date. I think it's got 500 IUs a day for vitamin E, but most industry nutritionists will recommend, for a horse that's exercising, maybe under stress, maybe has some stiffness, some soreness, had a blood test on and has maybe some lower-level vitamin E. We're looking at a minimum of at least 2000 IUs a day of vitamin E.

 

Katy Starr (17:36):

Okay, and you have said in the past that really the only thing, really visually, that you can see with a horse is calorie deficiency or excess, right? Visually that's really the only thing that you can identify. Is there any way that a horse owner, I mean I guess they would need to work with their veterinarian, but how would they know if they need supplemental vitamin A or vitamin E? Because there aren't really any easy signs for them to tell if they're deficient or maybe having too much in their diet?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (18:09):

Yeah, you know, at this point I would kind of separate vitamin E and vitamin A. Vitamin A, you definitely need to make sure if you've got a brood mare operation, that you've got plenty of that. Hoof quality as well. There's been some research into if they have uveitis or some issues with eye health that elevated vitamin A can help with that as well. But if we talk about vitamin E, no, you can't look at a horse and say, well, it's deficient in vitamin E. But if your horse has other issues that have been diagnosed like Equine protozoal myeloencephalitis, that's a little protozoa that lodges itself in the horse's spinal cord and causes neurological symptoms, we know that vitamin E can help rebuild some of the damage that is done by that protozoa living there. So, obviously, it's not going to cure it. You need to work with your veterinarian.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (19:00):

There's antibiotics and drugs that you can use that will actually kill that, but we know that some of the damage can be supported by elevated vitamin E. Muscular issues, like tying up, we know that is muscle and nerve damage, and we know vitamin E being a powerful antioxidant can help reverse some of that damage. Even just in riding horses. Maybe it's a jumping horse or a dressage horse and you feel like, wow, I am feeding them an adequate diet, they're getting plenty of protein, but I don't feel like they're recovering very well, their muscles aren't developing very well. Then I will say, let's look at vitamin E levels in the diet. Maybe we'll do a blood test and see if they're deficient in vitamin E number one, and if they're not deficient, but we're still seeing some of these symptoms, adding additional vitamin E might be beneficial to this horse. So, not really visual symptoms that you'll see with vitamin E. It's more, again, coming back to what I always talk about you knowing your horse better than anybody else, knowing how they convert feed. Usually, they eat this, and their body type is they're very round and muscular, but all of a sudden, they're not. Or I'm just not seeing the muscle development over the top line, all of those things.

 

Katy Starr (20:23):

Yeah, just knowing their normal.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (20:25):

Knowing what their normal is, yeah! And also, knowing what might have been normal. As you progress up the levels of whatever discipline you're doing, that normal then changes and what was normal. A lot of horse owners that we work with have had their horse their whole life and what worked for them as a young horse or an adult horse, now all of a sudden, it's not working for them as a senior horse.

 

Katy Starr (20:48):

Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Awesome. Well, I feel like we've covered a lot on vitamin E and vitamin A.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (20:56):

I think there's one thing that we said we were going to talk about at the very beginning, and we didn't actually do it.

 

Katy Starr (21:01):

Oh yeah, yes, yes,

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (21:02):

Yes. So, we did talk about D alpha-tocopherol being natural vitamin E and DL being the synthetic form, but within the natural form there are two different products that people will ask me about. They'll say, okay, well I can buy the powdered form of natural vitamin E, or my veterinarian might have recommended this water-soluble vitamin E. What is the difference or why would I choose that versus one over the other? Vitamin E is a fat-soluble vitamin, right? And if you think about the wild horse, and we've talked in the spring and the fall, there was an abundant vitamin E in the summer and the winter maybe that declines and they're not able to get it out of the forage that they're eating. So, what horses would do is they would eat that grass when it's abundant, absorb the vitamin E through fat-soluble receptors in the intestinal wall, and then it gets stored in the animal's fat. And so, when there's not a lot of vitamin E available in the pasture, either the summer or the winter, it doesn't matter, they're going to use the vitamin E that is stored in their fat when it's not abundant in pasture, right? Unlike something like a water-soluble vitamin, like B vitamins, which are being created by the microbes that live in the horse's gut, and they're being absorbed all the time, right? They're not storing it anywhere. They're absorbing all the time, every day as they're eating that grass.

 

Katy Starr (22:32):

Using it.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (22:33):

Using it, right? So, in the intestinal lining, the water-soluble receptors, if you think about them like doors, there's a lot of them because every day I'm just absorbing everything that I need. So, I need lots of receptors or doors for it to go through. The fat-soluble vitamins though, there's not many doors because I'm absorbing it and I'm putting it in the fat to use it later, right? So, you can either buy the powdered natural vitamin E, which is going to use those fat-soluble receptors, only a couple of them going to get stored in the fat for later use. We're just, kind of, mimicking how they would absorb it out of pasture. Then, there is water-soluble vitamin E. Oil and water don't mix, we know that. They use a technology called micellization, which actually allows that fat-soluble vitamin to use the water-soluble receptors or doors, which I've just said there are a lot more of.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (23:33):

So, in a case of severe deficiency, your veterinarian's done a blood test, we've got very deficient vitamin E, we're showing neurological symptoms, we've got a lot of signs of deficiency in vitamin E, we will recommend that you use the water-soluble version of the natural vitamin E because it's going to be absorbed much more quickly. Definitely much more expensive, but it is going to be absorbed much more quickly. Myself, in industry, I usually recommend if the horse is really sick, very low in vitamin E, I'm going to use the water-soluble first, and then because it's so expensive, I'll usually get the levels back up in the blood where it needs to be and then transition them onto that powdered form, which is going to be using those much fewer fat-soluble receptors and get stored in the fat. The other thing is, if a horse is very thin and there's no fat for that vitamin E to be stored in, then they obviously need the water-soluble vitamin E.

 

Katy Starr (24:30):

That's excellent. I'm really glad that you have remembered that point because it can get really confusing once you get, kind of, into these like detailed and there's multiple, like when we had the conversation about salt, right? It's so hard when there's many, and so I think having conversations like this where you can kind of break it down for people and allow them to understand, I think this is going to be super valuable for a lot of our listeners to kind of just have a better understanding of vitamin E, what type to use and...

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (25:00):

When to use it.

 

Katy Starr (25:01):

Do they really need to use the really expensive water-soluble one all the time? Or is it just in those scenarios where they're just really deficient or whatever and you really need to kind of give them some extra help quickly?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (25:14):

Here is one more point that I would make.

 

Katy Starr (25:16):

Okay.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (25:16):

That just because a vitamin E comes in a liquid form does not mean that it's water-soluble. There are several natural vitamin Es that are mixed in with oil, so fat, and that is just convenience-based. It's still going to use fat-soluble vitamins. It's more a convenience-based product versus water-soluble. If you look in the ingredients, if the label doesn't specifically say "water-soluble vitamin E", the first ingredient in that product will be water. So, that's how you can tell the difference. If it's really water-soluble, you mix it with water. If it's still fat-soluble, the first ingredient will be oil.

 

Katy Starr (25:58):

Excellent, excellent. I love that.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (26:00):

Just confusing people even more.

 

Katy Starr (26:02):

No, I think, I mean they're confusing people more. You are helping people understand.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (26:07):

I'm trying. I'm trying.

 

Katy Starr (26:08):

. Yes. Excellent. Thank you, Dr. Cubitt. So aside from that, are there any other takeaways that you would like to leave our listeners with about vitamin E and A for horses and in pasture and hay before we end this episode?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (26:23):

Really the key takeaways are that forages, fresh grass, very high in vitamin A and vitamin E. As soon as it gets cut into hay within the first two weeks of it being cut. So, most people are not going to be having access to that hay in that window of time. They're going to be getting it after two weeks. Don't count on the hay providing enough vitamin A and vitamin E. Most of your commercial concentrates will give you plenty of vitamin A, but if you've got brood mares that may be struggling with reproduction, you might want to evaluate the amount of vitamin A in your diet. Vitamin E, performance horses, old horses, kind of diseased state horses, usually all can benefit from some extra vitamin E. And then the delineation, if it's got the little L in there, it's synthetic. Most feed companies will use some portion of synthetic in their feed.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (27:17):

It doesn't mean that it's useless, right? I want to put it out there. Synthetic vitamin E can be absorbed, absolutely can be absorbed by horses. It's just not as readily available as natural vitamin E. So, a lot of feed companies will actually use a combo of natural and synthetic because they also don't want to charge you exorbitant prices for a bag of feed. And then, if you need extra supplemental vitamin E, work with your veterinarian first. It is one of the nutrients that you can test in blood. There are so many others that I say, don't take a blood test, it's pointless. But vitamin E, yes, do a blood test even if your horse is not showing deficiency in vitamin E. We do know that sometimes if they're still showing symptoms of like muscle soreness or they have one of these other disease states, we do know that additional vitamin E still might be beneficial in those cases.

 

Katy Starr (28:11):

Excellent. I think those are all really great take home points. Dr. Cubitt, thank you for talking to us about vitamin E and vitamin A today. And listeners, if there's any podcast ideas that you have that you would like us to talk more about on the Beyond the Barn podcast, please feel free to reach out and email us at podcast@standlee.com. We love to hear from you guys, and we will catch you next time.

 

Katy Starr (28:38):

Thanks for listening to the Beyond the Barn podcast by Standlee Forage. We'd love for you to share our podcast with your favorite people and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite listening platform. Until next time, keep your cinch tight and don't forget to turn off the water.