Ep. 086: Do Hay Nets Harm Your Horse’s Teeth? What the Research Says

Episode Notes

On this episode, co-hosts Dr. Tania Cubitt and Katy Starr and guest Dr. Michelle DeBoer discuss using hay nets for horses, based on scientific research, including:

• How do hay nets benefit horses?
• How much hay could potentially be wasted without using hay nets?
• Can hay nets damage your horse’s teeth?

Dr. DeBoer provides an easy-to-understand breakdown of her research on using hay nets for horses and whether or not she recommends using hay nets, based on her scientific study and experiences. This episode is packed with practical tips you won’t want to miss!

Have a topic idea or feedback to share? We want to connect with you! Email podcast@standlee.com

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Connect with Dr. Michelle DeBoer on:

• Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/equinephd (@equinephd)
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/equine.phd/  (@equine.phd)

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*Views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the view of Standlee Premium Products, LLC.*

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Scientific references – 

“Effect of hay nets on horse bodyweight, body condition score, hay usage, and dental health in mature adult horses” - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0737080624000583#:~:text=The%20results%20from%20this%20study,over%20a%20one%20year%20period.

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Read full episode transcript

Katy Starr (00:01):

Hi, I'm Katy.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (00:02):

And I'm Dr. Cubitt. We're going Beyond the Barn. Come join us on this journey as we bust equine and livestock nutrition myths, and interview some of the most intriguing experts in the country.

 

Katy Starr (00:15):

We'll go behind the scenes of how premium Western quality forage is grown and brought to your favorite farm and ranch retail store. We're so glad you're here. Welcome back to another episode of Beyond the Barn, Dr. Cubitt. It's great to have you back here with us today.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (00:34):

I'm excited to be back!

 

Katy Starr (00:36):

And we also have a special guest joining us. Our next guest earned her master's and PhD at the University of Minnesota and went on to serve nearly seven years and was a tenure associate professor at the University of Wisconsin - River Falls. There she taught courses on animal anatomy and physiology and equine production while conducting research on equine nutrition and management. Her studies have covered everything from blanketing horses and hay nets to deworming and vitamin E and Equine health. Today she brings her expertise to the industry as an animal nutrition specialist for Spikes & Houles, a Minnesota based farm and feed store chain, where she continues to help horse owners improve care and nutrition for their animals. We would like to welcome Dr. Michelle DeBoer back to the Beyond the Barn podcast. Thanks for being back with us today!

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (01:28):

Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm excited to be here.

 

Katy Starr (01:32):

Yeah, we have a great topic to discuss with you today on some research that you've done. Before we get started, I just want to remind our listeners that any of the topics that we cover on the Beyond the Barn podcast are more generalized and not specific to any individual horse or any specific situation. Be sure to always work with your veterinarian and nutritionist before making any drastic changes to your horse's feed program. Or you can always reach out and talk directly with Dr. Cubitt or Dr. Duren on any specifics that you'd like to know. And then also, Dr. DeBoer can also be a resource for you for this episode. So, we're excited to have you back. The last time we had you on, we were talking about blanketing horses. We actually had you for two episodes, which was a great conversation. And today, we're going to be talking about some of the research that you've done on hay nets.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (02:24):

Yes. A little bit of a switch, but a very pertinent management topic as well.

 

Katy Starr (02:29):

Yeah, yeah. Excellent. So, you published in the Journal of Equine Veterinary Science in May of 2024, 'The Effect of Hay Nets on Horse Body Weight, Body Condition Score, Hay Usage and Dental Health in Mature Adult Horses'. And I'm curious, what inspired this study for you guys?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (02:51):

Yeah, so it was actually an idea for quite a while, even when I was in my PhD. And my advisor, Dr. Krishona Martinson at the University of Minnesota, did a lot of hay net research and really wanted to look into this topic as well. But we could just never find the right setup, or the right group of horses, that we could have for such a long period of time. So, it kind of just fell by the wayside. So, when I got my position at the University of Wisconsin River Falls, it all, kind of, lined up where we had the horses and the facilities we needed. So, I called her up and said, "Hey, let's go if you're ready", and she was really excited to collaborate on this project. And so, we get the question all the time and we were really excited to start getting answers for horse owners.

 

Katy Starr (03:32):

Right. Well, and one of the things that I noticed when I was looking through the research paper that you guys had put together for it was, one of the things you had mentioned that was even though there are benefits, kind of, associated with using hay nets, there were some horse owners that were still, kind of, reluctant to use it, because they had some concerns over a horse health that, kind of, concerned them. And so, I imagine that was just, kind of, interesting for me. What were some of their main concerns that you felt that you guys had heard from that?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (04:04):

Yeah, I think a lot of it is you think of providing hay nets. You're creating this barrier between the horse and the food that they're designed to eat continuously throughout the day. So, a lot of people were concerned that biting that hay net and that force on that incisors might create abnormal wear, it might increase the amount of wear when we have our horses ashypsodonts who are, their teeth continuously erupt, they're like, well, we don't want to damage these teeth that are, you know, continuously erupting throughout their life. And so, Krishona's previous research really showed a lot of benefits in terms of reducing hay waste and things like that. But people are like, well, is that going to be worth it if I'm causing dental problems with my horse. So...

 

Katy Starr (04:44):

Right.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (04:44):

I think that was one of the big concerns, as well as any frustration behaviors the horse might exhibit from not being able to easily access their hay.

 

Katy Starr (04:54):

Right, right. So, why don't you talk to us a little bit about the study, kind of, how it was set up, the duration of the study, the horses that you had involved with it and everything.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (05:05):

Yeah! So, we used thirteen mature geldings and so, their ages were five to fifteen years old at the start of the study. And so, these geldings were housed in adjacent dry lots that were basically identical. They had free choice access to round bales; they are with or without a hay net. They had water, shelter, and that's just where they lived for the two years that the study took place. And so, most of them were school horses. And so, with the exception of a few that were, kind of, laid up with injuries, they were worked between the months of September and about the beginning of December. And then, they went back to work after our J-term in February until the end of April, beginning of May. And so, they worked a little bit, did lessons, IHSA classes, but then they had breaks over the winter as well as in the summer months. But they were on a mature grass hay throughout the duration of the study.

 

Katy Starr (05:58):

Okay.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (05:59):

And a free choice of vitamin and mineral mix as well. But we made sure that they were horses who didn't require grain, because we didn't want any chewing from that grain mix to alter any of our findings.

 

Katy Starr (06:11):

Oh good. Okay. And you used each of their horses as their own control in this study, right?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (06:20):

Yes. So, I think that is the best part of this study is that when we consulted with veterinarians and dentists ahead of time, they said every horse - their teeth are going to be so different. And so, you can't just get two groups of horses and evaluate their teeth and compare them because there might be some discrepancies that we could not control for. So, what we did is we split the horses into a hay net treatment and their control groups, they stayed on those treatments for the year. We had their teeth looked at again, they were floated again to get them back down to a baseline, and then they switched treatments. So, for the next year they were on the opposite treatment that they were on the first year. And so, that way each horse got to experience a full year on each treatment. They were all floated to get down to a baseline prior to starting each treatment year. And then, we could look at results after that year and then compare each horse to themselves. So, what did their teeth look like on the no hay net control? And compared to how they looked while they were using a hay net.

 

Katy Starr (07:21):

And so, how frequently were you putting out round bales? Because you use round bales for this, right? With the hay nets?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (07:29):

Yes. Yes, we use round bales, and the round bales weigh anywhere from like 900 to 1100 pounds. And we were probably placing them, on average, between three and five days and they were getting a new round bale. It would depend if they were, we were placing them close to every three days when they were in the control with no hay net. And sometimes we would be at five, six, maybe even seven days if they were on the hay net. So, that time changed based on the management practice.

 

Katy Starr (07:56):

Right. Interesting. I'm wondering, because you tracked hay usage which allowed you to account for, figure out hay waste with the nets. But I'm curious, since it was over two years, so you went through two winter seasons and I know, kind of, based off of our conversation that we had before with that on my brain about how horses keep themselves warm, whether they're blanketed or not. Were these horses blanketed during the winter seasons? Were they pretty similar both seasons or were they consuming more one year than the other just because you guys had bigger storms? Did you observe any of that or is that getting too nitty gritty into things?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (08:38):

We actually, from just looking back on the data, we didn't see any seasonal changes in hay usage. Which was honestly a bit surprising, I think for especially the control horses when it came down to waste versus actual intake. Since we didn't split that out, it's, kind of hard to tell how much they were actually consuming versus how much they were wasting. But that stayed pretty consistent seasonally as well as, you know, on the hay net they had a pretty consistent intake. I did see, when I looked back on some of the data, that we did see a little bit of a weight drop around January, February, kind of, in the early spring/late winter where we would see about a 20-to-40-pound average weight drop, regardless of the treatment they were on.

 

Katy Starr (09:23):

Oh, interesting.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (09:23):

So, I do think, you know, we do see some of those fluctuations, but it didn't really matter if they had a hay net or if they didn't. Something that I did find that was interesting. So, looking back, knowing you were going to ask a question like this, I compared some of the data and I did see that in year two when we switched treatments for both horses, we did see a lower intake in the first three months compared to the last three months of the second year.

 

Katy Starr (09:50):

Oh!

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (09:50):

And so, I was thinking about like why that could be, and I was thinking the horses who moved from the hay net to the no hay net control, they probably were used to being a little more discreet with their consumption.

 

Katy Starr (10:02):

Right.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (10:02):

And they also had probably a lower intake. So, they were maybe eating a little bit nicer...

 

Katy Starr (10:07):

Yeah.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (10:07):

...for the first couple months and then the horses who were on the no hay net control and switched to the hay net, it probably took them a while to figure out how to more efficiently consume hay from the hay net. So.

 

Katy Starr (10:18):

The learning curve for them.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (10:19):

Yeah, I figured there was a little bit of that adaptation, which is why we didn't report monthly results in our study. We did look at the beginning to the end due to some of those fluctuations we could be seeing from season or from that adaptation period.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (10:34):

It was really good that you were able to do twelve months on each because yeah, immediately you think of the transition period from one group to the other, seasonal changes, and you were able to capture all of that. So, really unique, you know, in a lot of equine research we don't have such longitudinal study. So, neat that you've got two full years.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (10:58):

Yeah, thank you. It was. I'm not a very patient person. I really just wanted the results. So, having to go through about a three-year process between planning it, getting funding, doing it, analyzing the results it definitely tested my patience a little, but I think it's really valuable data to have because you're right. Most studies are, you know, capped out at 45/60 days and getting that full year is when we typically recommend dentals to be done every single year. And so, that gave us enough data to be able to say, "Okay, if I'm doing a dental based on recommendations, what changes do I see?".

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (11:32):

And enough data for someone like me as a kind of, industry equine nutritionist and yourself now as well to confidently be able to give horse owners advice based on this research. Like it took everything possible into account.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (11:50):

Exactly. Well, thank you. I appreciate you saying that, because I was, yeah, I really liked how we were able to set this study up and I'm grateful we had the ability to do that. Not everyone is as lucky.

 

Katy Starr (12:01):

So, Dr. DeBoer, and we've kind of touched on a few of these little things, but could you tell the listeners what your main objectives of this study, what you guys were hoping to accomplish?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (12:14):

Yeah, so our overarching goal and objectives for this study was we wanted to get a better understanding of the long-term impacts of hay nets when it came to horse morphometric, so, their body weight and body condition score changes, hay usage, which was the sum of the hay waste as well as the hay intake. And then, any dental implications we might see in terms of dental wear, dental abnormalities, but an overall dental health.

 

Katy Starr (12:44):

So, what types of hay nets were tested? I mean obviously you used round bales so you had to have the larger hay nets to do that, and I believe it was the 4.45 centimeter openings. But why did you specifically choose these hay nets to use?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (13:00):

Yeah, so we chose the hay nets with this opening because this is, kind of, the industry standard right now. I would say in terms of the average hay net, there are ones with smaller openings that are considered more to be a slow feeder designed to lead to weight loss or help with weight management a little bit more. Then there are bigger openings that we might see but are typically, I would say, not as common. So, we were really wanting to get a standard value from the average hay net that we assume the average horse owner would use.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (13:33):

And just to remind our listeners.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (13:35):

Mm-hmm .

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (13:35):

I, being Australian, 4.45 centimeters doesn't raise any concerns to me, but what is that in inches?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (13:43):

Yes. 1.75 inches.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (13:45):

Okay. And so, kind of, the gold standard for the slow feed hay nets is that the hole needs to be less than one inch, right?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (13:53):

Yes.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (13:53):

So.

 

Katy Starr (13:54):

No, that's good. When I think of conversions, I was doing some conversions on the kilograms to pounds because I don't always think about that. I'm much more used to centimeters though because on a ruler you have both .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (14:06):

Mm-hmm .

 

Katy Starr (14:06):

So, it's like we did something right. Right? At least we added centimeters on a ruler. .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (14:12):

Yeah. And full transparency, yeah. The hay nets we used were Hay Chix Hay Nets and they did fund the study. So, I like to throw that out there too because I know some people might be turned off by, you know, a company who sells it doing it. But we did do all the research, they all they did was supply the money. They didn't even get the results until after we published.

 

Katy Starr (14:32):

No, that's great.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (14:32):

So, I just want to make sure I'm transparent on that side.

 

Katy Starr (14:36):

That's great. Yeah, that's excellent. So, did you notice that I mean you said it was, kind of, like the standard size openings for the hay nets, but did you notice that the size or type of hay net mesh affected the horse behavior at all? Causing them frustration or engagement for any of the horses at all?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (14:54):

We didn't, but that also wasn't the scope of our study, so we weren't intentionally looking for it. So, just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there. So, I did look up some other research to see what was out there specifically with round bales and there was a short communication that did look at nets and how it impacted on round bales for horses in a group setting. And they did find that the opening size we looked at, so that 1.75 inches, did increase more aggressive behaviors with horses and avoidance behaviors in that group setting when compared to hay nets with a three-inch opening and then no hay nets as well. So, there's no difference between a three-inch opening and no hay net usage. But the smaller the holes, the more those aggressive behaviors were observed. So, I think it's something important to note, you know I have two horses on a round bale right now, so they don't fight, they all get enough. But if you are in a setting where maybe you do have more of those herd dynamics or a little bit more of that like resource guarding from those horses, having that bigger opening could be a helpful change to make.

 

Katy Starr (15:57):

Right.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (15:58):

And I think it is important to note that these were round bales, so the horse is in that more anatomically correct position for eating. I've not seen any studies when hay nets are hanging in stalls. I just talk about it anecdotally that, you know, in 4-H and pony club we learn you've got to hang your hay net up high so that they don't put their foot in it. But as people have used more of the smaller diameter holes and hang the hay nets high, that aggressive behavior like yanking, kind of, to try and get the hay out of the hay net. Anecdotally, I've seen more aggressive behavior or even some stiffness in the neck, but the round bale just puts the horse in the correct position for eating anyway.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (16:45):

Yes. And that is definitely, they do have a one or two studies I've seen looking at some hanging net height and that would definitely be the next area I would love to look at because not everyone uses round bales, and a lot of small squares are hung up in stalls. And so, looking at where they're hung, and I know a recommendation that I've always heard is making sure that hay net is hung below the withers so at least the horse doesn't have to stick their head up to consume it. But yeah, there's a lot that we still have to look at there. With that, also with those agonistic behaviors, I think it's also important to consider. I was just talking to Krishona about some previous research that she did, and they looked at cortisol with hay nets versus no hay nets and they did find that cortisol levels were lower (more regular) for horses that consumed with hay nets, which seems surprising.

 

Katy Starr (17:35):

Oh interesting.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (17:35):

But it was because they had consumed the hay over a longer period of time, when they were giving restricted hay access. And so...

 

Katy Starr (17:43):

That's interesting.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (17:43):

That is something we don't think about is, yes there may be some aggressive behaviors in a group setting on a round bale, but when we can prolong the amount of hay that they have to consume, we are going to see less stressful behaviors and we are going to see less stereotypical behaviors as well of those horses who can eat longer.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (18:02):

Yeah, because with the round bale, the hay is in front of them all the time.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (18:05):

Yeah.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (18:05):

Unlike most small square settings, where they're being fed that twice a day, maybe three times a day, and there are periods of time when maybe they've eaten it all and they're standing around frustrated. So, it comes back again and then they're aggressively eating it. We all think our horses are super smart but when they're meal fed, they don't realize that food is coming back.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (18:28):

Mm-Hmm .

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (18:28):

And yeah, will raise that cortisol. So, interesting.

 

Katy Starr (18:31):

Right. And I think with feeding horses too, there's always some give and take with things. There's always going to be pros and cons with the decisions that we make. That's why I think we always encourage people to, kind of, realize that their horse is an individual and we can't always blanket provide advice for everyone. So, that just, kind of, goes to show that you, kind of, got to just do what works best for you and your situation and your horses. So.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (18:56):

Yeah, that's spot on. That's always my biggest advice is use the science and fit it to your specific practice. Especially being in industry now, I'm like well we have a gold standard but not everyone can do the gold standard.

 

Katy Starr (19:09):

Right.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (19:09):

Depends on money. It depends on the barn setup you have. Sometimes you have to just do what works for you and that's always something to consider.

 

Katy Starr (19:17):

Right! Excellent. Can you talk a little bit about the methods that you use to measure body weight, body condition score, and then hay usage?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (19:27):

Yeah, body weight, we just had a digital scale. So, we were just able to walk the horses on a scale and get a very objective number. Body condition score, we did have our vet (our dentist) weigh it every single year when she was out. So, we would monitor it monthly but because it, kind of, would change based on who was reporting it, we only used what that one veterinarian did at her dental checks every single year. For the hay usage, what we would do is we would weigh the round bale before we placed it, using that digital scale, and then we would place it in the pen, and we would monitor the number of days until the horses consumed the whole round bale. And then, we would average it out based on the body weight in that pen so we could determine what percent of body weight intake did we have on average over that many days.

 

Katy Starr (20:17):

Excellent. And you used the same veterinarian for the body condition scoring, right?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (20:25):

Yes. So, we had for our end of year one and end of year two, we had the same dentist veterinarian. We did have someone who was her partner do it the first year, but she left the equine practice, so we switched. So, they were partners, they were trained very similarly. And then, that was the only slight difference, was with the very initial body condition score.

 

Katy Starr (20:47):

Excellent.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (20:47):

What was the average percent of body weight intake? You know, we tell everybody, oh you should give your horse between one and half to two and half percent of their body weight per day in hay. What do they actually eat?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (20:58):

So, we didn't look at actual intake, we only looked at the hay usage. For the horses on the net, which they had very little waste, they were at about 2.56% of their body weight.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (21:09):

Okay.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (21:09):

And so, when we did our blanketing study where we actually looked at intake, we removed the hay waste factor.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (21:16):

Mm-Hmm .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (21:17):

They were about, in the winter, so this was just in January when it was really cold, they were at about 2.2 to 2.6% intake.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (21:25):

Yeah. Okay.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (21:26):

And so, the blanketed horses were closer to 2.3 and the non-blanketed were closer to 2.6.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (21:32):

Mm-Hmm .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (21:32):

So, for free choice intake, I'd say that 2.5% is a pretty solid average.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (21:37):

Solid number, yeah.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (21:38):

Mm-hmm .

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (21:38):

Did they get fat?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (21:40):

So, the ones on the control, they did gain weight.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (21:43):

Did it level out? I'm only asking that because years ago, Henneke, the guy that did this body condition scoring. He came to ESS, and he presented a paper, I was still a grad student, and he ad-lib, like feedlot fed, broodmares grain.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (21:59):

Okay.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (21:59):

Just had the grain in there all the time and we're like, oh you're insane.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (22:04):

Yeah.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (22:04):

You're insane. They're all going to get fat and die.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (22:06):

Yeah.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (22:06):

No! They did. In the first, I think, month they gained weight but then it leveled out. And so, maybe they ended the study half a body condition score heavier than when they started?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (22:18):

Mm-hmm .

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (22:19):

But we all just thought they were going to eat themselves to death and all die.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (22:22):

Yeah .

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (22:22):

But when horses have food in front of them all the time, they learn that it's not going away and they leveled out, and I've never forgotten that.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (22:33):

That's very interesting because yeah, we saw them initially the ones without the hay net, they gained weight. So, in year one they gained weight really fast.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (22:41):

Yeah.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (22:42):

So, they went from about 1200 pounds up to like 1270.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (22:47):

Because I'm assuming they had not been on a round bale. They had been meal fed?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (22:51):

They had been on round bales, but they all had hay nets previously.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (22:54):

Yeah. Okay.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (22:55):

Yeah. So, they went up and they went up, you know, about that 70 pounds and then they plateaued. They had another little spike at the very end like July/August.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (23:04):

Mm-Hmm .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (23:04):

And then, those horses, as soon as they went on the hay nets, their weight dropped back down pretty quickly and then it, kind of, plateaued about where they started at.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (23:13):

Yeah.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (23:13):

So, we just saw this like intake on the control and then decrease. But they, kind of, just, yeah, they basically gained the weight and then they lost the same amount of weight they gained.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (23:22):

Yeah.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (23:22):

But the other group of horses, they stayed a little more consistent throughout the whole study regardless of what they were on. So, we saw for them a little bit more of seasonal fluctuations and then when they were on the control, initially they gained weight for the first couple of months.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (23:37):

Yeah.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (23:38):

Then they lost weight over the winter, and then they gained some again in the summer and just, kind of, stayed there. So.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (23:44):

And all the round bales came from the same batch. Right? Were you able to do that?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (23:48):

Yeah, so what we do is we just try to place the round bales. We have so many horses, we get numerous batches in a year.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (23:55):

Mm-Hmm .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (23:56):

So, they'd all get it from the same shed and then we would replace it in that shed, and they get it. So, they were all getting the same type of round bales at the same time.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (24:03):

Yeah.

 

Katy Starr (24:04):

Dr. DeBoer, so what were your methods for the dental measurements?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (24:09):

What we do is, so at the beginning of the study, right when we assigned horses to treatment, so like day zero of the study, the dentist was there, she floated their teeth and then she took incisor measurements. And so, we looked at, you know, the incisors in the front of their mouth and she just measured how long each of them were. We did note any dental abnormalities to, kind of, see what the horse started with. Even though when we floated them, we got the horses down to a healthy baseline of a mouth. At the end of the year, she then would go and look in their mouth. We take again the incisor measurement so we could compare what we started with to what we ended with. And then, she would note any dental abnormalities, how many teeth were affected by those abnormalities. And then, she'd float their teeth again and we would switch them to the other treatment. And then she'd do the same thing at the end of that second year as well.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (24:56):

So, that was, kind of, the dental veterinarian aspect that we used. The other thing we did is we looked at what we call the rostral oral cavity score (ROCS). And so, we modified, kind of, this scoring chart that was previously used in a study. What we would do is the students would go out every single month and they'd pull the lips apart and they'd take a picture of the front of their mouth, so they could see their gums and their teeth. And then, we would go and gather all of those pictures from every horse, from every single month. And then, at the end of the study I got the great job of randomizing every single picture and then I also had to crop them. I didn't want the vets to know which horse it was, what month it was, what year it was. They were just, all of them were just completely random individual pictures.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (25:44):

So, we had a little over 250 of those pictures that were all just identified by a number. We sent them to the two veterinarians who had worked on the horses during the study and they both scored them on that scoring system. And then, when they sent me back their scores, I averaged those out and we used the average from the two veterinarians to determine. So, the rostral oral cavity is referring to, kind of, the front, the forward most portion of the mouth. And we were looking a lot at things like did they have chips or cracks on their teeth, did they have any soft tissue damage? What was the gingiva color, the margin? Overall, kind of, the dental health at the very front of that mouth.

 

Katy Starr (26:22):

Excellent. Okay. In the study, what did you discover about the impact on dental health with using hay nets?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (26:30):

It did not impact dental health. The numbers were so close that it wasn't, when we looked at length it was the average, for their incisor length, was spot on. Regardless of treatment. And so, it wasn't like a, oh there was a numerical difference but we didn't see a statistical difference. It was very, very tight. Where we’re like, same with the roster oral cavity score (ROCS). Both treatments were at a 47% for that score. Like it wasn't any numerical variability, really, between those treatments. With the dental abnormalities, we looked at both severity and prevalence because we're like, well what if one has like really severe wave or a lot of sharp enamel points in their mouth? We don't just want to say yes or no and not quantify that. So, we looked at both severity and prevalence and again, we did not see any statistical differences there. I don't know if I said this yet, but we did see a lot of dental abnormalities. So, while treatment didn't affect it, I think it's a really big takeaway that we should be doing annual dental exams for any prophylactic dental work on horses, regardless of whether they're on a hay net treatment or not. We saw sharp enamel points on 100% of our horses at the end of a treatment year. So, just for comfort in their mouth and overall dental health, it's definitely worth getting it looked at.

 

Katy Starr (27:52):

Interesting. Okay. And from this research and others, what observations were made regarding the hay waste reduction using hay nets?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (28:03):

Yeah, so from our study we found a 0.67% difference in percent body weight used. So, both consumption and waste. And so, I did some math because I like making it more relevant. And so, our average horse was about 1200 pounds. And so, for a 1200 pound horse, that's an additional eight pounds of hay a day that they would be both using or just wasting. And so, over the course of the year for a single horse that's 2,937 pounds of extra hay from not using a hay net. So, I know some people like...

 

Katy Starr (28:39):

A ton! A ton of hay!

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (28:40):

. Yeah. So, they're like, I don't want to buy, you know, a $300 hay net and you are going to be paying that back within the year by just wasting less. And so, I think this is very repetitive of the previous work that people have found in which hay waste will be reduced by using hay nets or a hay feeder or some way to contain the hay. And so, I think it's a very beneficial practice for economical benefits alone in addition to horse health.

 

Katy Starr (29:07):

Right. In, kind of, both of your opinions, Dr. DeBoer and Dr. Cubitt, how can horse owners use the findings of your research to make practical decisions for their own horses? Obviously, we talked about everything needs to be, kind of, on an individual basis, but what do you think horse owners can, kind of, take away from this?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (29:27):

My big thing would be that the scientific benefits we found from research, overall, outweigh any of the perceived risks we might have from hay net use. And again, every horse is individual. There are scenarios where I would use hay nets with a bigger hole or maybe free choice hay, especially if I have horses who might be coming from like, you know, a rescue situation that are severely underweight, things like that. But we can also see benefits, you know, for overweight horses using these. But overall, I think hay nets are an extremely valuable management tool for both managing the morphometrics of the horse as well as just saving money, which let's be real, we all want to save extra money and then we can spend it on more horse things that we want to be buying. So, .

 

Katy Starr (30:11):

The fun stuff ?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (30:13):

Yes !

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (30:14):

I would say the same. I mean the main reasons why I recommend horse owners use hay nets is number one, to save hay. That we don't waste it, because it's the largest part of the horse's diet. We use all kinds of crazy, you know, buckets, feeders for the concentrate portion of the diet because heaven help they waste any of that. But the hay is really the largest portion of the diet. So, primarily people using hay nets to stop waste. But then also another huge one is I preach about mimicking grazing behavior and so slowing horses down and allowing them to have something in front of them more consistently than not and getting out of that, kind of, meal feeding pattern. And got to be real, people have to work and they have to go to jobs all day and they can't be out there throwing a flake of hay every couple of hours to, kind of, mimic that grazing behavior.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (31:11):

Mm-hmm .

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (31:11):

So, the hay net, whether it's a regular hay net with a regular sized hole or has a smaller hole to really slow them down because they're fat or whatever, just mimicking that grazing behavior. So, from everything I've seen, the one question that I was curious about, because it's another question, I don't often get a lot of opposition because they're worried about dental health or safety with a hay net. I get a lot of: "It's time consuming". How hard was it to put a hay net on a round bale?

 

Katy Starr (31:45):

Good question.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (31:46):

So, what we end up doing, so we have a hay hut.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (31:49):

Mm-Hmm .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (31:49):

Because Dr. Martinson also has researched that the hay hut was one of the round bale feeders to reduce hay the most. But we jerry-rigged it where our round bale net is attached to the hay hut.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (31:59):

Yes.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (31:59):

So, all we have to do is lift up the hay hut and I've seen it with round bale feeders too. You get those ring feeders.

 

Katy Star & Dr. Tania Cubitt (32:04):

Mm-hmm .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (32:05):

And you can just go and attach it...

 

Katy Starr (32:07):

To the ring feeder?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (32:08):

Yep.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (32:08):

With the actual ring feeder, so then you can do it on your own. Because we used to, for the blanketing research we had done where we looked at intake, we were going and the skid steer would hold it up and we would have to wrap it. And that is, you, kind of, want two people, one to be operating the skid steer, one to be wrapping it around, but that's not the only way that you have to do it.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (32:29):

I think attaching it to the feeder can be extremely beneficial.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (32:33):

Mm-Hmm .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (32:33):

I also think just seeing a lot of the Black Friday deals that were happening, they have a lot of different hay net feeders that they're using that are designed to facilitate ease of use.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (32:44):

Mm-hmm .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (32:44):

And like whether it's just, you know, the ones you pop open and throw the hay in and then close it. I think a lot of hay net providers are getting smart in terms of, you know, it can be time consuming but there are ways we can make it a little bit easier.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (32:58):

Yeah.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (32:58):

And you just have to sometimes be creative.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (33:00):

And I'll say Katy and I have no connection to Hay Chix, but we talk about them all the time. Mainly, because they have a fantastic Facebook page where all of their users will post pictures or send in pictures of the ways, the really thrifty ways, that they have used the hay net and to share it with everybody.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (33:20):

Mm-hmm .

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (33:20):

And I think that's really neat, that actual horse owners using the hay nets show cool ways. And one of the other reasons why a lot of my clients are a little nervous about using round bales and I try to talk to them about the benefits and they talk about round bales like, oh well it's just crummy hay. And I'm like, well no, a square bale can be crummy hay, a round bale can be great hay. It's all the hay that goes into it. But if the hay is not being eaten within seven days, then you worry about it getting wet and mold. But using the hay hut and the hay net, so the hay hut decreases waste, not necessarily slowing them down but then using the hay net as well. That's, kind of, a double whammy. It's a one-time investment.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (34:06):

Mm-hmm .

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (34:06):

That over years, saves you so much money.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (34:10):

It really does. Yeah, because I have two horses on, well two horses and a pony (two and a half), on the round bale with the hay hut. But yeah, we got the hay hut because it's covered and we're like, and you know, it's pretty protected.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (34:22):

Mm-Hmm .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (34:22):

So, we're like okay, it won't get wet. Because it takes us about three weeks to get through a bale and we're like, if we had left it out it, it would be getting bad with all the elements and things like that.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (34:31):

Yeah. Mm-Hmm .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (34:32):

So, we set it on a pallet underneath the hay hut, use the hay net. We have very little hay waste that we ever have to worry about, which is really nice.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (34:38):

Yeah.

 

Katy Starr (34:39):

How frequently did you guys have to either replace the hay nets or fix them?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (34:45):

Not very often actually. We probably noticed like a few small holes, kind of, going into that first summer. So, we made sure everything was, I guess they only had one, but we replaced it. And then, we also just tried to replace it after six months too just to make sure everything was kind of, where we wanted it to be. But they stood up pretty well to those horses. With six or seven horses in a dry lot eating out of them.

 

Katy Starr (35:10):

Yeah. Okay. Excellent.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (35:11):

And I think the studies that looked at the dental, maybe it was Krishona's work. Wasn't it like hay feeders that had, they were, when slow feeders first came out and it was this, kind of, DIY thing that had a metal grate in it and it was like oh yeah, they wore away their teeth terribly on that. Or any hard, kind of, grate that they had to chew through.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (35:33):

Yeah, I haven't seen any research on the dental side. I did see stuff going around like Facebook or on different things of how the horses wear, but there are some studies that do compare certain aspects of slow feeders versus hay nets. And I think that would be interesting because we just looked at, until I published the research on my social media page, I didn't realize how many factors of hay nets were so important to people of whether they're knotless or knotted or you know, what material they're made out of.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (36:02):

Oh gosh. I haven't even gotten into that .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (36:04):

Oh, I know. I didn't realize the vast world of hay nets that people were concerned about. So, I learned a lot there, but I'm like, oh there's so many other things we could test going forward that I love research, I love science. So, I definitely have some ideas going on .

 

Katy Starr (36:19):

Well, and you mentioned about earlier in the conversation about the height of, you know, a hay net if you're using it on more of a singular basis. In addition to what you're just talking about, what would be, kind of, your top, if you were to go back and do this study again, is there anything that you would do differently or questions that you would've liked to ask?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (36:41):

Yeah, great question. So, I honestly, I really like this study and how we set it up for what we were trying to look at. I think, yes, it doesn't impact hanging net height or things like that, but my main goal for this study was: Does the barrier of a hay net between the hay and the horse impact anything with their mouth? With the dental factors? And so, that was, kind of, step one and I feel like that was really the jumping point for future research. I don't know if I have two more years in me to, especially now that I'm not at UWF anymore, to look into some of the other variables I want to test. But ultimately, I think looking at time to consumption for different hay net types, like they've done it for different holes, but what about, there's so many different feeders out there. So, what prolongs hay consumption the best? What Dr. Cubitt was saying in terms of trying to mimic the longer consumption and the longer mealtime for those horses. I think that's one of the big ones that I would really like to look at. But then also hanging net height, I think there have been some studies out there who have looked at that and I'd like to look at it further, especially in terms of how it impacts any pain pressure thresholds for the horse, any range of motion, performance factors. I think that could be a very valuable study as well.

 

Katy Starr (38:00):

Excellent. You mentioned one thing earlier but, kind of, before we start closing out, are there any considerations from your perspective regarding safety or potential drawbacks that, you said the risk is minimal compared to the benefits, which is good, but anything else that horse owners should be considering or thinking about if they're going to use hay nets?

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (38:21):

Yes, I think the hanging net height is going to be very important in terms of preventing your horse from getting caught in it. Especially, if they have shoes on of making sure they can't get a leg caught in it because those can be pretty devastating injuries for them. Going into winter, if you have a blanket, making sure those clips face inward.

 

Katy Starr (38:41):

Right.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (38:41):

So, if they're faced outward, they could get caught on the hay net and get them stuck. And you know, horses like to be dramatic about certain things and get themselves all worked up, so let's prevent that. I think also the hay net size, paying attention to it. You know, a lot of these hay net hole sizes are small enough that they're not going to get a leg caught in it. But especially with our young horses, who also just seem to get into predicaments, I know a lot of people who just avoid using hay nets for foals or for young horses who might just be a little more playful, might be a little bit more prone to those accidents and that they, kind of, wait until they're a little bit older before they start using hay nets for them. So, I think it's just something to just be cognizant about of there are ways the horse can get caught in it. Doing everything you can to prevent those incidents from happening.

 

Katy Starr (39:28):

Yeah. Like baby proofing young children.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (39:31):

Yes.

 

Katy Starr (39:31):

But foals .

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (39:34):

I know I haven't done a lot of foal work. Except for a few years back and I'm very intentional about that. I'm like, they just seem to be quite the handful.

 

Katy Starr (39:42):

They get into trouble, they're curious.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (39:44):

Yeah. My human children are enough for now, so .

 

Katy Starr (39:48):

That's funny. So, kind of, as we wrap this episode up, is there anything else that either of you, I mean you, kind of, gave your take on hey nets and what you, kind of, gathered from the research, but is there anything else that either of you would like to share with our listeners?

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (40:03):

I am just super appreciative of you doing this research. It's very practical. As I mentioned earlier, as someone in the industry, it's this kind of, practical research that then I can utilize and say, look, we've actually, this has been studied. It is delaying rate of intake, it's delayed body weight gains. So, yeah, this is great work.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (40:27):

Thank you so much. This is the research I really love to do and I'm hoping to still find some ways to get some of this research done that I think is very practical even though I'm not in the academic setting anymore. But yeah, I guess my big takeaway is just, I mean, again, every horse is individual. You have to make considerations with your vet, your nutritionist, but I think hay nets are such a valuable management tool that can be used for horses. And it's a great thing to consider if you want to save money and make sure your horses stay healthy.

 

Katy Starr (40:59):

Who doesn't want that? . Excellent. Thank you for being on the podcast with us today. And to our listeners, if you have any podcast topics that you would like to hear about or you want to just reach out and share some feedback, reach out to us at podcast@standlee.com. And other than that, Dr. Cubitt, thank you for being here and Dr. DeBoer, thank you for being our guest today.

 

Dr. Tania Cubitt (41:21):

Thank you.

 

Dr. Michelle DeBoer (41:22):

Thank you so much for having me.

 

Katy Starr (41:25):

Thanks for listening to the Beyond the Barn podcast by Standlee Forage. We would love for you to share our podcast with your favorite people and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite listening platform. Until next time, keep your cinch tight and don't forget to turn off the water.